Why a Marine Became a Psychologist: Finding Purpose After the Mission

Speaker labels and mis-heard names are corrected by hand; the words are as spoken, filler and all.

Preview clips

Josh: He was like, "Every," you got to do something like a thousand times to make that happen. You got to do something more than a thousands of times to make it muscle memory.

I thought I had seen poverty, you know, here, but you go there. Yeah. It sounded completely different. Um, she was kind of like, I think God's telling you something. You're not supposed to be a cop. Like, just knock it off. Like, it's go something different. Like, you got to listen. It's not going to push the issue on something that maybe it's not for you. All right. And then I think where I finally gained their respect was uh we were doing a just an ass competition. So just assemble assemble and I smoked every single one of them. They couldn't they couldn't beat me and they were like oh so we kind of started hanging out after that.

Conversation

PJ: Uh hey, welcome to the Mastering the Military Transition Series of the Prize podcast. My name is PJ and I'll be your host. The purpose of this podcast is to share the stories of those who have successfully transitioned out of the military so you can see the tips and tricks necessary to have a successful transition of your own. That way, you don't have to stumble across some of the same things that myself and my team at Prize had to struggle with. At Prize, we believe in a world where all enjoy the freedom to grow.

That's why we're developing the Prize app. If you'd like to learn more, please check out the prize.vet link in the show notes below. Hey fam, welcome to another installation of the Mastering Military Transition Series of the Prize Podcast. Today we have Joshua Zabler with us. We're going to call him Josh for the show today. Um was in the Marine Corps from 2005 to 2010. Got out as a sergeant. Um was 0311, was with third platoon, first FAST Company, and you're saying that three times fast and Third Battalion, Second Marines, did four deployments in five years, which is a lot, man.

Um, and then had a has a basters and masters in psychology, which I'm really excited to dive into. And then you've been with the Vet4Warriors, uh, Vets4Warriors, excuse me, for almost the past seven years. I would actually love if we could rewind quite a bit. And I would love to hear about like, you know, what was your journey getting into the military? Like what was your where were you in time and space?

— I was growing up.

Josh: That's actually kind of funny. So growing up, um, my dad was a Navy guy, I think, uh, eight eight years. Um, didn't

talk about it a whole lot. didn't enjoy his time. Uh my mom and him split when I was younger. Um sad story there. Work and everything. We were in a trailer. Dad did like night shift. Mom did uh day shift. The mom left. Dad came home, sleep on the couch with my brother and I were right there. I was about three. He was 18 months old. Son also went a fire starting. Um ended up passing away. I was in the hospital for two weeks.

— It's actually your brother. Yeah. Wow.

Josh: myself. I have like a his tattoo right here, Anthony. Um, so I was I was three. I was like 18 months old. Um, after that, mom and dad kind of just couldn't make it work, so we split behind went with dad to uh Wisconsin. Uh, and that's where my mom and dad are from. Um, and then my mom stayed out of Florida and I meet my stepdad happened to be a Marine. Um, my grand uncle was a Marine. Uh, he's actually featured in Leatherneck magazine. Yeah, he flew over Japan during World War II, was like taking aerial pictures and stuff. So, just have an article about what?

Yeah, he would fly and take pictures and do all sorts of stuff. But, um, so grew up around the military. And then I actually remember vividly as like six years old um my mom and I going to the commissary and uh Parris Island. I was with Parris Island at the time and memory sees merch around like that's so cool. Um my stepdad you came home he did the you know the old tricer cannons with the with the starch and the crest but yeah you know so it's like cool see every every day he came home and like my mom's in there iron in his uniform and I just thought it was the coolest thing.

Um, you know, fast [clears throat] forward, uh, was going to go play football and do this after high school and, uh, the the offers that, you know, I I thought I would have gotten didn't get and, um, ended up kind of just like I don't really want to go play football in D3. Um, so

went from Wisconsin down to, uh, Florida. Um, and they ended up kind of moving there with my mom, my stepdad, and then trying school and just was like driving around one day, skipping class. Um, and saw a recruiting office. I was like, you know what? I'm just going to go talk to him. And, uh, I think it was like 6 days later, I was on the yellow footprints. Wow. Just like that. Boom. Uh, my stepbrother uh, he was in FAST Company, but he was in um, Rota, Spain, so I got him a follow with him.

Of course, he was like, "Dude, he's awesome. We're bright. I bet Ben has a super," you know, I didn't look anything into it. I was just like, "Let me go do it." And went and talked to him, told what I wanted to do. Um, and then my stepdad happened to be uh I think he was working at for Best Buy at the time, but he's out in Dallas in Texas, like open up a store.

PJ: Yeah.

Josh: And he's like talking to him out and he's like he's like, "You need to tell him not to." He's going to be gone before you know it. He's like, "Tell him like don't sign anything. Don't do anything." And he'll be out the door. And uh sure enough, he came back. He sat me down. He's uh E8. I think he actually retired at E9. That got never got the pinned. Um I think I think so his retirement is at the E9 range, but he never got pinned, right?

But just let the gunny. Um he sat me down. He's like, you know, I love the Marine Corps. He's like, but join the Air Force. He gets the best at everything. My steps at the same show you were stage. Yeah. Yeah. Like you'll have the best setup for a job. And I was like already going and yeah. So it was like I think it was like by the time I started talking to him I did MEPS and everything and six days later I was in Parris Island like ready to go.

Yeah. And then uh yeah the rest was history.

PJ: And the rest is history. Yeah man. So how did your mom take that?

Josh: Uh she I think she was upset I know. Um she still has my recruiter's card that he handed to her when he took me cuz we met um this from school. We met at the um Blue Angel Parkway.

PJ: Yeah. Yeah.

I know exactly what it is.

Josh: Yeah. So he I got into his car and she dropped me off and was like he's like here you go if you need anything and walked away. Um she kind of just knew what was going to happen. Um so she'd be okay with it.

PJ: Right. Yeah.

Okay.

Josh: Obviously don't want to see me go but

PJ: Right. Right. Right. Right. Yeah. So okay. So so you get in and did you say like now I want infantry like that's what I want?

Josh: No. So I went in and I was like I want to do this FAST Company thing. I was talking to him about it and and um

I think I got you know the trick uh presidential security like oh you're going to look guard the president you're going to be on TV you're going to be on Air Force One you're be doing this I remember doing polls and they're like you know talking you're going to be guarding the president right um I don't even think I got a screen for it like really yeah I had other guys that I was at uh basic uh boot camp with and I think they have a full interview to go do that interesting and never once no one talked to me no anything.

Um, so I was at uh boot camp with under the impression I'd be going presidential security carrying uh DC barracks and this that and the other and uh it was never even an auction apparently. So I got uh so I mean I yeah I didn't know I didn't know uh FAST Company was an infantry thing. Um so I never even considered that. I just I thought security I thought this

um

my opinion I think it was kind of a way to boost up those numbers. Right.

PJ: No, absolutely. Absolutely.

— Slide over. Yeah. Yeah. Nothing about me.

Josh: Uh I had a lot of fun. I got to do a lot of cool stuff. So, right.

It wasn't my intention, but it was I I wouldn't trade it for the world.

— Got some. Yeah.

PJ: So, what they like you went to like MCT and then they were like

Josh: I went to SOI, ITB SL. Okay. Yeah. So, I did that little thing and then um from there you go if you're going uh FAST Company, you go up to um Chesapeake, Virginia. Uh what's it called? The Northwest Annex. That's this tiny little place out of Chesapeake, Virginia. Just nothing's there. Um, and you go through uh BSG, basic security guard.

Um, just learn basic like um security operations um checkpoints and physical security, internal security, things like that. And then um yeah, OC sprayed all that fun stuff. And they did that and then to get served ears like um I went to FAST Company. I had guys go I think it's called PCP. Um there's a chap, right?

— Uh not fast, but maybe it's wrong. I know it is a pork chop. Sure. You're right. You're absolutely right.

Josh: Uh I But I um maybe I'm misremembering, but I think you go So there's a place in is it Stone Bay, Georgia. It's right outside Jacksonville. North of Jacksonville, Florida. In Georgia, a little naval base. Um and then there's one in uh Washington where you guard uh I guess like material. So they're doing like

— Oh, okay. Okay, you're the you're the force and running is there hanging out.

Josh: Um, so a really good friend of mine. Uh, we got really really close through ITB and BSG. He went down to Georgia. He got heavily involved with like CQB and all that. So he was like uh top-notch like doing classes, courses, this that and the other and cool.

— Do a lot of cool stuff come there. And

— yeah, like FAST Company.

PJ: And you were attached to a Scout Sniper platoon, right?

Josh: When I got to 3/2. Yeah. I mean, you saw. Yeah. So I did FAST Company. Um uh I know third third platoon first going to be we usually call the 1F3 so first FAST third platoon um makes it faster.

Uh it's a fleet anti-terrorism security team.

That was absolutely also known as uh we called it the uh fake ass SEAL team. Um cuz you do a lot of cools like

PJ: right right

Josh: coming out helicopters doing this and that but at the end of the day you're FAST Company. Um, and then when you go to an actual unit like 3/2, um, those guys are B infantry guys and they don't really respect you at all. Oh, really? Oh. Uh, I think what happens is you go from FAST Company into the fleet and um, you're not going on combat deployments and then Tristan doing the same thing. So, they're kind of looking at you is like this like you come in as a corporal and you come in as a sergeant and these guys are terminal lances cuz they just can't get ahead. Whereas I think with u training for most of the experience that they do.

Yeah. Yeah. So but um and there's just a lot of guys from what I've seen are kind of like tools like uh you really doubt you your leadership is going to dictate how you are in FAST Company and I had uh Captain Buck and the staff were amazing. Um they were all about training and doing this and doing that. So our platoon compared to other platoon were just like non-stop classes and in the field doing this doing that. They just they were there to make sure like we knew what we were doing. and they did a really good job.

That's awesome. So, when I went to the fleet, I actually um had a really hard time integrating. I remember uh the guy I was standing before as squad there cuz he took over as platoon sergeant cuz I wait for someone to come in. I had my squad lined up. I'm like, "All right, let's go for a morning run. It's like my first I could do there." Took off for a run and then I think I waited like 30 seconds. I looked back and there was like three people with me.

Everyone else bail left. Went back to the barrack room. Oh, really? You got to get tested there. Testing me as a MC. tested me as a a guy who hasn't been there before. I didn't to play with them. I don't know any of them.

So, they really kind of tested me as an NCO. They kind of put them in place and do this and do that. Um, and then I think where I finally gained their respect was uh we were doing a just an ass competition. So, just assemble assemble. Um, and I smoked every single one of them. They couldn't like I was with the saw real quick. Um, they couldn't beat me and they were oh. And so they kind of started hanging on talking after that. Uh, and everything went well, you know, and what ended up happening, how I got to the SC platoon, um, I guess there was like some leadership issues and some weird things going on, hazing, whatever else.

So, um, battalion was kind of like, we need NCOs's there. Yeah. So, I was like, I'll do it. Uh, went in, interviewed with battalion, the platoon commander, and I forget someone else is there in the room. Um, did like an hour long interview with them. um and then walked away and then got my name call and so I was able to head over there and do that,

PJ: right? And and Okay, so you said you had a really good leader at FAST Company. Yeah. Which I mean like how do I put this? Um

— politically correct.

— Yeah.

PJ: Um there's some great leadership in the Marine Corps. There's some like terrible leadership in the Marine I both. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. I'm curious to know like what some of the takeaways you got from that leadership. Um

like the good days,

Josh: the good one was um always be prepared. Um like you are a professional. It says Marine Corp, not Boy Scout.

Yeah. [clears throat] And uh uh um you're a professional is is be the best you can possibly be. And um and and at the end of the day, if you know, FAST Company um and I'm not sure if everyone even understands what the the role it might have even changed now, but um

PJ: why don't you break it down?

Josh: So we've got different embassies all throughout the world. Um and then when the way it was explained to me was um you got MSG Marines there. Yeah. They're there for security reasons taking care of the place. Um if anything happens uh they kind of divert and focus on internal um security where they kind of lease the external. They don't have enough manpower to kind of cover the external. So that's when the FAST platoon is going to be in theater can move over. So prime example uh I mean Yokosuka Japan 2006 2007 Myanmar Burma I don't know what you

sure um riots were going off in the streets I think monks were like burn themselves a lot there's a lot of stuff going on and we actually had our backs pack outside the door ready to go um do things like riot control uh and basically take over the external right uh security um for the MSG guys uh and that was really what I understood our job was to be just kind of security um if it need if we needed. So like with the um Carl Vinson as a refill defuel they take the spend in cells out they put new nuclear cells in um kind of working in conjunction with the Department of Energy to get those that nuclear material secured and ordered no one comes for it and takes it that sort of thing and then we got it in and then we're there just watching the ship watching personnel and everything.

Um but yeah [clears throat] mainly just security so got it. uh kind of blocks and accessor were just kind of like uh um handle your business and then you go out and kind of do whatever you want kind of thing. Um so big on um training and being ready. So uh and then getting us prepared for the fleet. So Captain Buck um was a Mustang so we started and guided.

Yeah. He always told me I told us actually is if he got to a point where uh he couldn't directly lead Marines, he was done. And I follow him on Facebook. I'm pretty sure he's retired. He got to major and he was like, "Come out." I'm telling they can't directly with my arian and I get up.

PJ: Yeah. Yeah.

Josh: So, um but it was just uh it was really neat. He like that man was brilliant. Knew anything, everything. Um remember one time uh they didn't have a whole lot of confidence in me at first. So, uh, they shot me into what they call the, uh, COC, command operations, shore. And, um, we were doing one, uh, a place in Virginia called Lorton Prison. That's in vain in prison. We're doing kind of use the buildings and use the whole property. We're doing our mockup to get ready to deploy.

And, uh, I remember something happened. They were getting another platoon is there to do like an assault. And there's just stuff going on the radio. And he eventually just gave me the ra. Boom. He was like working three different radios calling in you know um mock air support and said you kind of sitting back and watch him like like do different things like whoa as we you know he's an operator knows what he's doing and uh that's what he's trying to instill in us is just um you want to be prepared for when the thing actually happens right so a lot of times people sit back and I I think they kind of like think about the situation think about what's going to happen but never actually prepare themselves for it backward so you want to make sure that uh when the stuff hits a fan, we were in a just day break muscle memory.

He know exactly what to do. And he the muscle memory thing I think is funny. I tell my kids all the time, uh there's one particular week where um he was just he's he took the whole week just to prove a point. He's just like literally like he's like boom, we're not doing anything. Monday morning we check out our rifles um and we just did uh presentation drills. So you're sitting here alert ready lurk ready

and then left face you know uh for 90 turn right boom and then del ready. So, we're just doing like pivot drills, facing drills. I think we did it Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday. And then Friday, he let us put the blue barrels on. So, for the sim rounds,

right? And um he was basically like we got 25 m out and he wanted us to put a blindfold on and we did it 180° pivot. uh brought it up, shot, we're all blindfolded and I I'm pretty sure all of us are just sitting right in the T- box and right cuz we just spent all week like boom boom boom boom he's like every you got to do something like a thousand times to make it happen. You got to do something more than a thousands of times to make it muscle memory. Yeah.

And there's so many times where something's going to happen. Something's going to pop off and where your train is is where you're going to divert back to. And if it's not here, yeah, down to here. And if you're not there and stuff pops off, like you're in trouble,

PJ: dude. I love that. So there's a Do you like um you you play football, right?

Josh: Yeah.

PJ: Um do you ever read The Score Takes Care of Itself?

Josh: I had read that known.

PJ: Do you know the book I'm talking about though Walsh?

Josh: No.

PJ: So he was the coach obviously 49ers. I had the whole thing.

Um his whole thing was like focus on the basics.

Josh: Yeah.

PJ: Running drills. I want you to go 29 yards. Not 29 yards and 6 in.

Josh: 29 yards.

PJ: Right. Exactly. Right. And he was so babe on that and like um and at first people thought he was crazy and all this stuff but but again like they had the basics

man they were boom

boom right they had it all nailed down and I look at people like Steph Curry

who like dude practice I think it's like a thousand you know three-point shots a day or 500 whatever it is but like you watch the guy man dude three point turns around walks on but it's like does that even look and then there's so much energy saved not having to think about things like that.

Josh: Yeah, I think maybe that's probably what I say. Be prepared. You're like boys coming. But yeah, that's what he was trying to say was that and then no matter what like you are going to get, you know, Mike Tyson's like get hit in the mouth.

— Well, that's right. I have that's right. What are you going to look like? What's it going to look like?

Josh: And I mean even now like there's times where uh a couple years ago driving in New York City with my wife and the kids and someone opened the door and just crushes the side of our car and it was just like boom. I just went in immediately like pull over, did this, did that. Cops are here. bowing my head within like 5 minutes. My wife was like still like kind of frazzled. I'm like, but that's what was kind of instilling. But he was like when something happens like take care of your business.

PJ: That's right. And it's on this action mode. Yeah. And you're building in that space too. You know, I do think and I talked to my son about this too of like you know I think having that train to fall back on is important

and and I think this comes down to like habits and stuff too. A lot of us have habits that we've built in and probably done thousands and thousands of time, but it wasn't deliberate.

Josh: Yeah.

PJ: So, they're acting a lot of times on like autopilot and I'll say like my kids, they turn autopilot off, you know, because it's it's actually hurting rather than helping.

Josh: Yeah.

PJ: But the deliberate training of like this is what we're doing. Let's do it a thousand times, 500, whatever it is day and now it's second nature when it needs to be.

Josh: Yeah.

PJ: That deliberate building of habits is so vital. and so vital. It's nice that to me if you if it frees up so much more to go out and and build upon it. Yes. Come better at it. Yeah. To kind of open up your repertoire and learn different things because now you don't devote energy and time to this one little thing that just happened.

That's right. Okay. So So you All right. So you got it. You No wonder you schooled them now with like taking apart put me back into the song. They disassed I guess you called it. Um that's cool. And All right. So you were you were with um the Scout Sniper Platoon at that point, right? So like what was that like?

Josh: Uh that was it wasn't what I thought it was going to be. Um and so I remember uh so I had the book um what I don't even know if it's a book anymore, but it was a bunch of short story about different sides and in that book was you know Carlos Hathcock and Cool. It was a One Shot One Kill.

Yeah, that was the story. Yeah. So he's he's got a bunch of different stories. He's got the one about the woman who had the guy he was torturing him. He's got the wife thing where he's like chasing another sniper and he's doing different things. He's the one where he's going to I think assassinated or major. He's like crawling through the field. He's there for a few days like so that that book had a bunch of different stories from um Vietnam all the way to OAF and Hawaii.

PJ: Was it all Carlo Carly?

Josh: No, it's just different stories. I think we're talking about One Shot One Kill. I think that maybe is good book. Yeah. A whole bunch of different story and I thought it was the coolest thing. And then I get to

— some money shot through the the scope of the

Josh: Yeah. And then so and then you watch um was it Tom Berenger that it is in the sniper movies?

PJ: I don't know that I saw that.

Josh: Oh old other older movies. I think it's called Sniper in Sniper 1, Sniper 2, Sniper 3.

— I'm glad I saw it.

Josh: I think it's Tom Berenger. He I think it's Sniper 3. He literally takes a pistol and from this the roof down here and shoots up here and hits the scope. Does the scope through the Come on, dude. Yeah. Right. Right. 9 mm of I was like that is wild. But uh I just thought, you know, it was the coolest thing and I get there and then I'm I'm learning more. It's it's more about observation and in gathering intelligence and

PJ: yeah scout.

Josh: Yeah. You that that's the primary function is not to shoot. It's not to be the I mean for us absolutely but um a lot of what we did and weren't prepared for was getting information so that the force that was coming in uh new building sizes, doorways, windows um if we can um anticipate the um movements within the unit that we are going to be assaulting. if we could uh figure out hierarchy, who's here, who's there, what guard uh changes look like, things like that, so that we could provide as much to that force that they could have a plan going in and not kind of um be blindsided.

PJ: Sure.

Josh: Um but it was uh really interesting. Um got to do a lot of different stuff. Um got to kind of plug in with like uh Recon platoon as well.

PJ: Very cool. Um do some cool stuff with them. Best dude are bad.

Josh: Yeah, it was really cool. Yeah. So we got to do a lot of fun stuff.

PJ: Yeah.

Yeah. the guy I had on um last time he he's a uh um he was a 2111

Josh: okay

PJ: small weapons um uh I guess maintainer

and he was talking about like uh he was like yeah man he probably he probably has dealt with us before I told him I was going to have you on next um that's cool man so did you deploy with them at all

Josh: yeah uh so that's when so I did my my two deployments was the the state side was um with FAST Company. So, we did the refill refuel in uh Newport News and then I went to Yokosuka, Japan. Um got to go to Guam, got to go to K. I had great places.

Yeah. My uh staff Hernandez was like, so when we we actually got there, we split. So the second uh second squad and third squad stayed in Japan and then first squad went on a boat down to the Philippines and they were doing a lot of the um I guess you call it antipiriracy but it was there's a lot of terrorism within the Philippines and islands and everything down there where they'll go the island. So they were there as a as a force as a readiness to kind of stop whatever was going on between those islands because I guess you can kind of hop skip and move around very easily.

Um, so then I got the 3/2. Uh, we were slated to go to Afghanistan and then that changed. Then we got, uh, pegged for the 22nd MEU and then I think we were still going to go to Afghanistan and then uh, that changed because of the uh, of Africa off Somalia. There's all that stuff going there. So we went down there and um had the I guess you call antipiriracy operation, but we were there to basically stop like if someone was trying to take over a ship or sure be there for that.

And then um I want to say that's when swine flu hit and we actually got like stuck out at the bow for a very long time. We couldn't do anything.

PJ: How was morale?

Josh: It was Oh, we actually had like a a berthing wiped out and then they pul if you it was quarantine. You got shoved into this like burden if if you started showing symptoms like got

PJ: Oh, so no. So you couldn't go in there. Yeah. Um how did you get put in there? Uh

Josh: right. Yeah. You weren't allowed to leave. They brought you food. You eat box lunches. I was like, "Oh my gosh." Um but then uh yeah, we so uh we kind of were figuring out what to do mainly just in the area as like you know being ready. We dropped the Ospreys off um Pakistan. They flew in Afghanistan. I think that was the first time actually made it in the country. Um, that's what we were told. Uh, maybe to feel special. I don't know. Yeah.

And then we went to Kuwait. Uh, because our sergeant major was like, I don't want to be in a boat this whole time. Went to Kuwait. Spent like a month there just doing different ranges and training everything. And then from that, um, I think I went through the Suez like the Suez Canal like four or five times. Um, we helped train Jordan military, help train Egyptians. Uh we worked with the Greeks and um just shot like basically shooting tech hangings and I remember uh being in Greece and the hills era just wild but we're shoot trying to teach them how to shoot elevation shoot from hill to hill and everything and uh just hot crazy good but um after that came home and then thought everything was done and then the earthquake in Haiti happened

and they're like well because the 22nd MEU that I forget who was coming in after us. They weren't ready yet. So, we were sitting there like, "You haven't really dispanded yet." So, packing bags are gone. So, we went down. We were part of uh Operation Unified Response. Yeah. Yeah. Doing all the handing out food and everything.

PJ: That's cool. That's That's probably a really meaningful mission, too. [snorts]

Josh: It was really uh eye opening. Um I guess I thought I had seen poverty, you know, here, but there Yeah, it's completely different. Damn it. Um and just a lot of horrific things um that people didn't seem to care about. Uh you know, kids if it was it was horrible because you wanted to give the kids food, but then like if you gave the one kid food, then the all kids wanted food and that kid ran away and those kids beat them off and took it and it was like so we you know I kept my little drop papa right here and I'd have crackers and stuff and and we learned really quickly to not do that. um had to stop a guy from I what I I thought he was going to assault a little girl.

Um he was like pulling her in and knowing some people kind of looked like disgruntled and I said something and another buddy of mine said something and we had to like separate the two of them and we didn't know what happened. Um one morning we woke up and there's a like a dead body in the river where like and he was up river so like people are down filling up buckets of water and I was just like boo. So it's like I don't know I don't want to speak for that but an education thing of just understanding that's probably not the healthiest thing.

So it's just like perpetuates the disease and everything is down there. Yeah. And there's nothing really clean and kids are just they got one shirt, one pair of shorts like that's it. Um we say the woman who um what something happened. I forget exactly. I don't remember the story, but um she had a really bad infection and things was like in her in her breast and uh they had like a tent with sticks and uh we went in and I I couldn't even get it was almost like one big tent and then like a little room where she was secluded.

I couldn't physically get into the next spot because of the smell was is so bad. Her my was like horrible. There was flies all over the place. our corpsman went in there and he came out. He was white like oh my gosh. Um he was like trying to I guess keep her going until we get you know someone to help and then eventually we just got over the ship and um I think the BAS was above the chow hall and the story we heard is like this smells coming down walking were eaten. O she was drowning up and had to like lock the doors and mind her thing but uh so we get got to help her out.

— Oh, she's survived. Go, that's a good thing. And man, would you imagine? It was It was Yeah.

— Yeah. Well, just you don't need to imagine.

— No, it's always interesting. Yeah,

PJ: that's uh Okay. I mean, it's cool that you got to do that, though. Um so, all right. You came back from that and then was were you like, "All right, cool. I'm done."

Josh: So, no. um I wanted to stay in uh I had every intention of making a career in in the 20 years

and then um I [clears throat] guess the big recruiting push. So um Marine Corps typically operates around like 100 to 120,000 active duty somewhere in there. Um I think it had swelled up to like 170 180,000. So they're trying to get the numbers down.

— And don't forget, man.

Josh: Yeah. So uh at that point they were kind of like um lap [clears throat] moves were shut down completely. So I had I had an awkward 5year contract normally like a four-year cont. Um, so I actually had gone in a year early to try and reinlist and I was going to go down to um, Parris Island and um, work as the I guess support personnel there. Jo up on the ranges and stuff like that.

PJ: Yeah. Yeah.

Josh: But then when the guy kind of ran by stuff, he's like, "You're not right. Yeah, you got a whole another year to go." Like, okay. And then like can all my time um, all those opportunities are gone. And they were pedaling if you you can stay where you're at. If your child want to go do something else, um you can your car intel or uh I think it was topography like making maps.

PJ: Wow. Okay. Interesting like that.

— Yeah, I didn't really Yeah, I didn't either.

Josh: And um I know that uh I was like at the time um married my first wife uh and my son was born and I was like I don't want to go counterint. I feel like the whole point is I want to be there for them and I think that would further remove me.

Yeah. I was already the field Monday through Friday and deploying doing this and doing that. I was like I I no um and I didn't want to stay in infantry. Um I wanted something different and so I decided to get out.

PJ: Got it. Well, that's I mean that's a big departure. Yeah. Literally. Um okay. So you got out and then you were like uh out what?

Josh: Yeah. Really? Cuz uh I hadn't given any thought cuz my thought was Yeah, I'm there. I didn't um uh I had a buddy of mine who was like I'm doing Trster. I'm looking to that. Troops to Roughneck or Troops to Roughneck. So rough neck is some of the works on the canoil rig.

— Oh yeah.

Josh: So they they got Troops to Teachers and they got you know different programs where you can kind of as you get out or once you get out you they get you set up to go get a job.

PJ: Okay cool.

Josh: And um I was like yeah uh I get this job. Um I work for two weeks on two weeks off. I start like $90,000 a year and I was like heck yeah let's go do that. So, I went to that whole train and um free course and everything and then uh got in with the company that I wanted to get in with and I was like this is not what I wanted at all. This is crazy. Uh this work is nuts. I don't I remember there's we do we call them tours uh two weeks out, two weeks off.

But I think there was like a 3-day period where I spent 12 and a half hour days every day for the 3 tripping pipe to just pull the pipe out. So because the bit was getting eaten up and swapping that out and putting everything right back down just to find out it ended either over end of pulling all in I mean thousands and thousands and thousands of feet of pipe pulling it out putting it back in pulling it up putting it back and uh again I was like I don't know what I want this. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So um went off to something else.

PJ: Yeah. I mean so and so how did you get into like psychology?

— Uh if we fast forwarding

Josh: so um I decided uh once I left uh Nomad Drilling um I wanted to go to school. Didn't know what I'm going to go to school for but I wanted to go to school right GI Bill

started doing that was working at Lowe's at the time. Um, so I was part-time lumber and building materials and then a full-time student and um that's kind of over that time period is when my vision of my ex-wife kind of deteriorated and um in kind of an effort to just change scenery and maybe make it work. I ended up moving to Jersey, I had a buddy of mine um who was going to be a cop there and is what I was always would be a cop. Okay. But uh couldn't ever pass a um the the the lie detector test because they would ask certain questions, right?

PJ: Sure.

Josh: And one of the ones that they would ask would and it sounds bad, but when you hear it, um have you taken prescription medication that's not yours?

Okay. So I have [clears throat] I took an 800 milligram of Motrin one right back to my mind and I'm like I'm gonna tell them and then so like I always kind of like would just tell them anything and everything and sometimes they were like you you're telling us a little too much. I I don't know. It just felt weird like I was just like but I got to be honest you blind in sector.

Yeah. like so. God, I got to tell you guys the truth. And um it was really kind of like I think one door after another kind of closed because um just like silly things like that. Like uh I ended up knowing I went for the North Carolina State Highway Patrol and through my ex-wife's uh dad, he had like a friend that was pretty high up in law enforcement down North Carolina. Yeah.

And he knew what was going on. He didn't tell me anything afterwards, but I went up, tested, did everything. It looked great. Did awesome. And then um they were never planning on having a class any budget thing going on but they had to like run through the cycle but these guys still have a reason to have a job or it's the way he explained it to me but they had never had any intention of hiring anyone for that cohort or the class.

PJ: Interesting.

Josh: So, it was just like little things like that where it was like, "All right, fine." He was like, "Yeah."

And um fast forward, you know, I met um my current wife and uh she was kind of like, "I think God's telling you something. You're not supposed to be a cop. Just knock it off. Like, go do something different. Like, you got to listen. It's not going to push the issue on something that maybe it's not for you." All right. Um and uh I the only interest I had in psychology was my son was um and is autistic

uh high functioning but just to understand that better sure I was kind of like

your fastest path to a degree who's go psychology and like and then you can kind of go be like a teacher and and do different things. I was like all right. Um so then I was kind of like let's do it. um started studying psychology, learned more about it, and then kind of really kind of fell in love with it. Um

and it just went from there to be honest. Yeah.

PJ: Wow. It kind of hurt you that way.

That's cool. And and if I think if we look back to like So how how many years have elapsed by like when you got out and then that you stumbled into that?

Josh: Uh so I got out 2010. Uh that would be November 2010. And I think I started school the next so the 2011 would have been you know the next so August 2011 is when I started school. Um and then I got I think we were talking in Atlanta. Uh I had changed majors so many times and my counselor was like enough like you got to stop like you're looking at finance looking at economics you're looking at this I'm looking at that like criminal justice like what are you doing and um I was like I I don't know I I really don't know yet. And then uh psychology happened. So uh that in 2013 2014 so a few years. Yeah.

PJ: So a few years.

Where were you between the ears at that time especially like having gone out of military and not really kind of what you wanted to do. Sounds like you like took that path. [clears throat]

Josh: I was okay. Um I just didn't know. Um, again, I think we get target land kind of

being told what to do, but it's kind of what I was used to and then never really, I guess, had an opportunity to to develop any interest outside of the military. And I always had it in my mind that, you know, I'm going to

be a gunfighter. I mean, you know, infantry guy, or I'm going to go do this. I mean, the military does a good job of kind of getting you really heavily indoctrinated. Yeah, we

Yes. and the issue of purpose and that yeah it was it was awesome sort of to go out and try to find that um on my own hadn't really done that yet and hadn't really thought about it yet and um I I think u I learned on I learned later on was kind of uh to stop fighting the resistance and kind of go with where the path is taking you because uh Christian guy and I believe that God's gonna put you where he needs you and where you do best and might not like it at that moment.

It might be the season you're in, but if you kind of follow that path, you're going to go the way you need to kind of thing. Yeah. Um I ended up figuring out that uh um with psychology, there was certain people that I could even um I wanted out so I was like, I'm going to pump all my ch into this and go do it.

PJ: Yeah. Well, well, I asked because like I think there's probably a lot of people that have been in that shoes where this is not the plan that I had originally gone with and to the point that you have of like identity and purpose is now gone and and there's floundering like and and potentially even some some depression, anxiety, whatever, whatever, right? Um but I mean at least as far as I've known you, not that long, but like you seem like a really really chill guy, but I'm curious like like how did that happen? you have like

Josh: uh I've always been very laidback like that. Um to the point I remember uh at boot camp before I got picked up with my platoon. You get there and you have like a day or two where like you you don't get to meet your junk just yet and then I remember they come in they give you awesome speech and all a sudden by

Yeah. Mo yeah before that you're with your like I don't know what you call him but he's just he's kind of showing you how to march. she's showing you where to go and and you know and I was in a classroom and handing you something and I just stand up and uh I was like recruiting like oh he's just chill on the block like I didn't scream what they wanted to so it's always been like a been very like laidback um kind of thing but uh I full disclosure I um I I I have anxiety and I I suffer from depression and those are things that like I deal with uh pretty regularly to be completely honest um even to this day.

Yeah. And so it's always been that way. Um, but I've uh always been very I guess like laidback and and quiet and and my family's always made fun of me cuz you know they'd be like well they made them many words cuz I just wouldn't talk a whole lot short which I think is what led me to counseling if you do a lot of listening.

But uh yeah um definitely have my bouts of uh getting worked up and and I have my highs and my lows. My lows are not good for sure. Yeah.

PJ: So, um, well, I guess what I'm trying to tease out is like what's your guiding philosophy? Like what what has helped you? I know you mentioned a little bit like, you know, I am or God, you know, to me, but like

one I I'm curious to like know know how you what what your coping has been and then how you've learned it.

Josh: Um, so I think uh if we back up, my um I grew [clears throat] up in a uh I call it a caregiver family. Um, I saw my dad and my stepmom uh worked at nursing home a lot and yeah, a lot of older people and were always around helping people and and um I didn't realize them I was younger, but as I've gotten older um I've realized there's a joy in kind of pouring yourself in other people, short amount. I sort of think that there is there's people that have a capacity to do that and um to help out other people.

And I think um that's kind of what you're here for. Right. And so I saw um my stepmom and my dad again uh helping out the just old people and then of course by extension they'd be like I need you to come help too. So there's a lot of times where I was working volunteering and doing things and I I found joy in that and um as I got older I I thought I wanted this and I thought I wanted that. Um I always wanted to be a cop, always wanted to be a Marine.

And at the core it was always I was always in a position to help somebody else do something. um whether it be helping them move or just help them talk something out or um helping teach something. Um but I always wanted to be able just to help other people. Um and in terms of my own coping with anxiety and depression, everything um I never liked the idea of having to take anything. Pills are always off. Um I think I you know through friends whenever else would like try Xanax here or whenever there was just like I don't feel the same. I don't like this.

PJ: Yeah.

Josh: Um but what has kept me kind of even kill is um if um I stay active, you know, I watch what I'm eating, things like that. Um and then uh I don't know how this for other people, but uh substances could definitely kind of play a thing. So, uh the big thing is is um everyone kind of goes out and drinks and does this and does that. I noticed that drinking does affect me a lot more. I can feel that low almost near. I know alcohol is a depressant.

Um, so I don't, you know, 100% avoid it, but um, it's just something that's not a priority in my life. Sure. So I try to to make sure that, um, I know that when I'm getting adequate sleep and I'm eating right and I'm I'm staying active in terms of uh, fitness and things like that, um, if I keep those things in line, like everything kind of just falls in place after that.

If I kind of let one thing go,

well, [snorts] then like the next thing goes and the next thing goes and then it kind of tumbles and had to get out of control. Yeah.

PJ: You know, I was talking to a buddy about that this morning of like, you know, the the phrase of like whoever's the most consistent wins.

Josh: Yeah.

PJ: And, you know, I think that there's we talked about habits, right?

Josh: Yeah.

PJ: Um I I think you're totally right. Um, like for me, you know, I have I have a very set kind of set of things that I do in the morning. Yeah. And I know that if I don't, it's interesting because I won't even notice necessarily how it's infecting me a lot of times until like the next day

like and then I'll like meditate or whatever I'm doing and I'm like, "Oh yeah, I was kind of, you know,

— yeah."

PJ: Um, but it it's it's interesting because, you know, and maybe you got into the field because you wanted to learn some of this for yourself. I don't know. I don't know. Um, but I think that it would be really helpful if we were taught these sort of things in a lot of ways. Like I I think that the military, like while we're in the military, we're taught discipline.

Josh: Yeah.

PJ: Which is great. It's a great starting point.

Josh: Yeah.

PJ: But discipline in what?

Josh: Yeah.

Right. And to that point, and I to kind of expand that, it's um again, my son is um autistic, ADHD, and my other son is ADHD to a tea, like w um but we uh with the medication, we are always like, we can do that, but it's not like a it's it's like putting your sunglasses on. It's it's not going to solve the problem, man. It's going to help you, but let's help you know what to focus on, where to put your attention, and how to do that. And so, uh, kind of to that point is this point. Yeah. But in what and how and what does that look like? And,

um, it's been interesting. I think I I think I figured it out as we get older, right? Um,

but I I've noticed that um, it doesn't creep up like right away. Things can kind of just very subs here, if that's there. Um, kind of derail you. And I think it's easy to be like,

"Oh, I'm I'm I'm screwed. I fell. If I I'm done." Yeah. Yeah.

Things can get into our head a lot and start having these negative talks and and I think that's where people get stuck is they're not um talking to somebody regularly.

PJ: Sure.

Josh: And um I think especially when Vets4Warriors what we've seen what I've seen is um people don't want to be a burden to the ones they love.

PJ: Absolutely. Yeah.

Josh: And and when you are going through it seems like it's all you think about it's all you talk about. It's also you're a burden to this person or you ran into your family or gay or friends and you're like well I don't want to I don't want to bring this to them always bring that to them.

So I'm kind of turn to and if you don't have anybody that's been I think you can kind of slip and get into some bad stuff that

PJ: yeah for sure. If you ever read the book um I'm sorry I I love reading so I I reference a lot of books. Um we've talked about the show before but like Speed of Trust.

Josh: I don't know.

PJ: So you've read Seven Habits of Highly Effective People as Stephen Covey. Yeah. So his son wrote a book called The Speed of Trust. Um and it's cool to see because he actually references some of the same stories you're hearing the other side. I thought it was pretty interesting. One of the things he talks about there is like

you know we have to build trust with ourselves

and and and you know if we don't it actually tends to bleed into like almost everything. Yeah. I think that that's what you're kind of alluding to here where it's like if I rationalize, you know, in the morning that maybe I'm not going to get up this morning to work out because I'm tired, right? Well, then that bleeds into like, oh, I have a project at work and it's due today, but you know what? It's okay if it goes tomorrow.

Yeah. like it and it's so slippery and so insidious that it kind of builds on itself and it's that mental habit

um where again if most consistent wins here catching yourself and be like no what JJ JJDIDTIEBUCKLE right what's one of those integrity right like

sorry for those who don't have JJDIDTIEBUCKLE look it up is the Marine Corps values but anyway um I think that that integrity with ourselves is so so important and if you want to be someone who delivers value or or or gets over like struggle of like anxiety and depression and that sort of thing.

Josh: Yeah.

PJ: These foundations and these habits that we can build in

are like protection.

Josh: Yeah.

PJ: You know, like I I refer to my morning routine as like my defensive measures.

Josh: Yeah.

PJ: You know what I mean? Because like if I don't do those, man, like seriously, for real, like I'll be out of date, dude. I got back last Wednesday um from from Atlanta, right? And like I will admit that this has taken me a long time to get here. But I had a point where like I realized I was in a bad mood and I was I was able to then ask myself like okay why why are you in a bad mood and how can I now overcome it? It's actually why I got this tattoo right to like be able to like look and this is what I resonate with right um

but man it took me probably five six years to get there to a point where I'm catching it in the moment

instead of like you know a week later or a month later or something like that. And I'm like, "Oh, man. I've been kind of a jerk recently."

Josh: Yeah.

Oh, and I think same same here. And it's not easy. Uh I I think I still mess up all the time. [clears throat] I walk you, right?

Yeah. It's funny. I was thinking about it cuz uh like I don't I love her death. My wife is the one will be like I see the look and I'm like

or she'll like say something or do something and I don't know if you've watched Ted Lasso, but yeah. You know, I resonate with uh Roy Kent the fact that there's so many times in that show where he's like told something and he's like he believes there's one thing he's like told something. You'll see him be like cuz he knows like it's not what he wants to do. It's not what he's feeling, but he knows it's the right thing. And there many times where that happens to me where I'm like a you're right.

Okay. I didn't even think I get out of my own way. Um, I just like mad and and and mad or sad or whatever it may be. And just like I'm kind of catching myself like, wait, hold on. There's some things uh there's obvious things coming into play here.

PJ: Yeah. So, you you were mentioning that you still struggle with an anxiety and depression. How did those two tie together? Are you able to like pull yourself up after like these bouts or

Josh: Yeah. Yeah. Uh I I I really feel like I just came out of one like uh I was

what happens to me is is um just life happens and I start thinking I overthink things a lot.

PJ: Sure.

Josh: And and whenever um I it'll affect my sleep. That's the first thing I notice is I don't have plans to get things done or whenever things kind of stack up or if I'm unprepared for something that comes in out of nowhere. Um, I can kind of feel that that uh physiological effect where, you know, temperature rising, the heartbeat's kind of going,

breathing. Um, if I can calm myself down and think it through and get a plan going, then I feel fine. But, um,

there's times where I'm just busy and everything else. And then, uh, I the first thing I know is when my sleep gets affected.

PJ: Yeah.

Josh: And then once my sleep gets affected, I feel like that just kind of spiraled in me. I know I don't have the energy to go work out which I need to go do cuz that's kind of like uh where I pride myself for the day, get my focus in and everything else. Yeah. So um it's uh and I I really think that especially in men like anxiety and depression almost one of the exact same the way they met um they it it's kind of like uh I think it was Jocko um well yeah

uh he was saying just like it doesn't matter just do it like just [clears throat] do it and I was like it actually is that simple It is that it's so sad. There's so many times where I'm in a mood.

— Thank you. I'll bet.

— Yeah. He's like just But it's so Oh my god. It's so true. That's so true. So you only got to do anything to just do it.

Josh: Yeah. And so this time I'm like I don't want to work out. But I'm like if I go I'm going to feel better. I know I'm going to feel better. And despite everything I just want to hang out and do nothing or whatever, I'm like I got to go. I got to go do this. I got to get outside. I got to breathe fresh air. I got to get my heart rate up if I got to sweat. And once I kind of that levels me out, I guess and gets that going.

And then think so that they're probably helps to sleep too. Yeah, exactly. So then I can get caught up in sleep again. I start feeling better and it's almost like stacking like little wins. So um and then being nice to myself really.

PJ: Yeah, man.

Interestingly enough, I think that a lot of us think that it's it's and we grow up with this, right? That inner voice which a lot of us is gifted to us from our parents. So thank you mom and dad. Um um but like we it is actually more challenging a lot of times for us to execute if we have a negative voice than if we have the positive voice. And I think that some of us have a different thought and we all have different drivers, right?

But I think that the point here is that like to quote my friend Tony Robbins here, like push motivation or fear or anger or or negative energy is short-lived.

Josh: Yeah.

PJ: Right. Like it's what gets you moving and it can be used very well, but it it's not sustainable.

Josh: Yeah.

PJ: Right. Like if we're constantly being mean to ourselves and we're constantly talking negatively to ourselves, a lot of time what then happens is we start moving but then it's like it's quickly subsided because now it's like oh well I guess I'm a piece of [expletive] then.

Josh: Yeah.

PJ: Right. Whereas if we can then identify now the positive part the breaks as you're mentioning to now pull us in the direction that we want to go. Pull motivation is far more impactful and and um um powerful than than like push motivation. So, I I totally agree with you and I and I think that I don't know I say something silly here, but like there's a reason why grace and growth both start with like a GR. Like you need both.

Josh: Yeah.

PJ: You know, but I think that there's a couple things that I'm recognizing. Tell me if I'm off base here. One is pattern recognition.

Josh: Yeah.

PJ: You know, like I think this is so huge. I'm the same way. When I feel like I'll feel my eyes right here and on the middle of my forehead when I feel those kind of tensing up, I know personally that like [clears throat] either ego is coming out to play, maybe I'm being like um maybe I didn't get sleep or something like that. But but emotions are getting higher. Yeah. Question yourself. So that's like the first thing for me that I notic in the moment. So pattern recognition is huge because if you can recognize the pattern, you can then start to change it, right?

Um, but then like I think that, you know, something else that I think you're touching on, again, tell me if I'm wrong, is the congruent, like being congruent, right? Like you have an idea in your head of like what life should be like and who you should be like, right? And when we're not holding those contracts with ourselves that we've kept, right? We're now being in congruent.

We're now not being aligned with the values that we that we care about. I was I was listening to uh you you ever listen to Movers on YouTube?

— About that one? No.

Josh: No. You listen to these?

PJ: I do. I know. I got to buy I got a bunch of sales I listen to and I'm like this stuff in the show. Um so like Movers is a uh it's a channel um it's one of my favorites actually and and it's really just they put together these really um well done like cinematic like clips from like motivational speakers and people like Alex Hormozi and like a lot of these people, right? and and they put like, you know, dramatic music to it.

Josh: I think I have a list of Okay, I have a YouTube playlist or Yeah, there's a guy I saw on on Instagram. He was like, "Every morning I wake up and it's like five morning. I'm by myself and I just listen to this." Yeah, man. Fight the urge. Just sell everything and just give up. And so you listen to this, it kind of

PJ: dude, same thing. As soon as I'm done working out in the morning, I put that on and I'm like juiced. Right. Yeah.

But the thing, okay, so something that someone said that was on it the other day though was like if you don't like yourself, right, which is often where this depression, anxiety, all this stuff comes from.

Yeah. Identify someone that you do like, someone that you admire, someone that like you you're like, man, that person's amazing. And pick like one or two things that you think that person does.

Are they integrous? Are they are they honest? Do they express love? Like what? Whatever it may be.

And just do those two things.

Josh: Yeah.

— And then my bill done.

PJ: Yeah. And like that becoming congruent, this is and now I'm being very personal. Like for me, becoming congruent was like the number one thing personally. So becoming clear on like what my values were, but then becoming congruent with those values or working towards it anyway has has really been a huge like okay, you know, like I don't really need this anxiety or depression anymore because I'm actually doing the things that I said that I was going to do and I'm aligning with the person that I want to be.

Josh: And I think anxiety ends up being the the the fear of what's to come kind of thing.

— Sure. You're doing the right things. There's nothing to fear. You're taking control. You're prepar

Josh: Yeah. Exactly right. And once you're in control, you know, uh you know, you're ready. You're prepared. Kind of go back to Captain Buck. You're prepared to race your

goals, sir.

And I was thinking uh until your point, you were talking about uh pattern recognition and everything. And the one thing I learned, the one thing I was really good at, um, well, I always wanted to be a uh, a behaviorist, BCBA, certified behavior analyst. Um, I worked with a brilliant one down in uh, Pensacola, Florida. Uh, taught me a lot of good stuff. Uh, cuz the school I worked at was pretty wild for a minute there. You know, we had the padded rooms, the magnetic doors.

— Cool. The kids was No,

PJ: I mean, may maybe not cool. Sorry.

Josh: Yeah, but it was a unique experience definitely. And it was um but uh um when you start to address a negative behavior, behavior will always get worse before it gets better.

PJ: Sure.

Josh: So um when you're working with a kid and you start to kind of um you want to mitigate their outbursts, um you're probably going to see an uptick in those outbursts once you kind of start attacking them. Um and I think that kind of happens, you know, with us too. we don't realize is if you know I want to be this and I'm doing this and I'm going to make these changes

I might find myself kind of fighting these these changes but growth isn't linear it's like this yeah so it's going to you know we I think that you got to be prepared and even with in other people but especially yourself if if you're going to try to change something or adjust something you can kind of expect some resistance and yes be prepared for that fight through that I think on the other side is is growth and change the good things I agree that and I think uh a lot of people don't realize go back to that that negative selft talk um our our brains you what they call neuroplasticity it's very malleable it can change and um uh one thing for me that I've worked on is um

and I love my dad to death

PJ: sure

Josh: yeah he grew up with my grandpa was a a beast of a man 6'9 massive guy but had a really big temper And and I think that kind of my dad saw that and that's what he had for a while and and I had to still to this day I think maybe at times have a hard time expressing himself emotions and getting out you know and I I saw that and there was just times where I was like I don't want to be that you know for my kids and then yeah I shot my dad but

PJ: no sure we do the best we can.

Josh: Yes.

Exactly. and me and and he's on his path, I'm on my path, and I saw what I wanted to be. And um but uh uh in talking to even my my kids um you almost had I had to like train myself to to to not get so angry at first or like um emotional or or you know like um charged up over just like some little things. I'm just trying to like if it seem to go my way. Yeah. And the more you do that, you're actually starting to change your neuropathway.

Yes. I was I explained to my boys, um I did two things with them one time. I showed them a balloon. I said, "Every time you get angry, you get upset, and you don't process it, the balloon just gets bigger, bigger, bigger, eventually going to pop in your mind." So, you got to let the air going out for and um let let the air out of the balloon a little bit. And so, when you're angry about something, um a lot a lot of times anger uh you're not angry, you're embarrassed, you're upset.

It's that iceberg, right? That's right. So, if you can pause yourself in that moment and not respond angry, but identify the emotion, identify what's really happening, then you can address the problem and move on.

And the more you do that, the less likely you are to respond in just treating those uh neuropathways in space. I explain it to him like a highway, too. Like, you have this offramp, you don't want that offramp anymore. So, you want to keep going. And if we can, you know, get the the construction guys out there, put up the road blockers and close that exit and move to this next one, there probably a better thing for you. So the more we do, the more we respond to this way, uh, we're to put we're able to block that exit and open up a new one and right we want so we are able to change the way we perceive things, the way we react, the way we respond and and how we handle ourselves and takes work and um, not always eating.

PJ: No, no, it's not easy. It's simple.

Josh: Yeah.

PJ: But it's so easy.

Josh: Yeah.

PJ: And and I think some people confuse those things.

Um Hey, I I really appreciate, you know, you sharing what you have here. Uh I'm curious to know, like, do you have a favorite book?

Josh: Uh it's funny. It's um it's a fictional. Uh that's fine. It's a Louis L'Amour. It's the Last of the Breed. Last of the Breed. Um I every winter I get up really really early in the morning. um it's dark how it's cold and uh no familiar with the book but it's a it's a Air Force guy he's a um Native American guy um and he gets he's flying an experimental craft and gets shot down by the Russian to take him prison and he escapes to prison and he's out on his own he's got to like make his own uh clothing and then arrows and all that and it's about his like track through Russia and they're hunting him down and everything else so it's a little more book I love I listen to it every winter.

And there'll be morning when I might up draw a rock on. It's like dark out. It's cold out. It's and and I'm like walking as I'm listening to um it's on audio right now. I have I have the physical book, but I listen to it audio and uh as as he's going through his trials, I'm going through my trial. Freeze him and getting up there. And that's always been something I just like and you follow. Yeah,

PJ: that's cool, man. Actually, I I really like that. And and actually reminds me a bit of like Goggins or like uh Yeah. Yeah. Iris is nuts. Well, yeah. But what do they talk about? Like Hormozi does the same thing. He talks about like it's your struggle.

Josh: Yeah.

PJ: Right. And and it's getting through those struggles that that helps us build the confidence and and like getting over um you know, like realizing that we can do hard things.

Josh: Yeah. Yeah. And it's funny. Uh my my wife has a person she follows. She's in the big the health thing, everything else. So, sure. She went got her integrative health practitioner certificate and cool. But there's a your person how to get along.

PJ: What's that?

Josh: It's a good wife and my wife. Yeah. She loves it. There's a there's a one her name is Andy Dream, but she uh her thing was always uh we can do our things. And that's right. She got I got I think it was two years ago for my wife's birthday. I got her a Swiss shirt so we can do our things.

PJ: Um that's cool. Yeah, I like that. Um what about a favorite podcast?

Josh: Uh, I always go back to I find him and it's so I don't know when he likes him, but I always go back to Joe. I like the the rank of that he he'll sit there for three hours and I think he gets a bad rap. I Well, he's just very honest.

Yeah. And I but he he's open to hear all sides, right side, that's for whatever. It's like you can I can get a different perspective and and hear what he has to say and he has I think intelligent conversations. Um, but I'm shifting from him. I was listening to I think it's like Chris Williamson. I was listening to him. Um and then uh um I'm trying to find something in the morning. Uh I think that just started with uh the Morning Brew where it kind of like yeah quick shot of like what's going on?

Let's talk about it and that way when I'm in the morning I I can actually bring something to my kids because uh they'll come to me and be like what do you think about this? You know the news. Yeah. And what's going on? And uh uh you know anything about the it is something pretty recently. It's just something I was like I don't even know anything about.

PJ: Was it 67?

Josh: No. Well,

— oh my gosh. I cannot I don't even get it. No,

— I don't either. I don't either. It's so funny though. My daughter, she's like she's seven and she's whatever. It's just really funny.

Josh: In fact, my my youngest, he's nine. He came home and talk about brain rod or something and I was like what are you talking about? and he started saying something. I was like, I I don't even know. And like then my wife explained to me. So I guess like there's all these words out there now like 67 sigma and IO and R and this and that. And uh I guess you people are now like like back in the day they used to be like gibberish. You talk gibberish, right?

Uh now it's like brain rock and they'll talk in these things and I'm like this is so dumb. But that's like I don't know what anyone doing here but we said some pretty dumb things. Oh yeah. But yeah, definitely. Yeah. And

PJ: um well, cool, man. I I really appreciate you being on. I appreciate you coming out here and sharing your story. Um thank you. It means a lot. Um if you all have any feedback or anything, as usual, please drop it in the comments. Like and subscribe would be great. Um but hey, if you have any ideas of who you think should be on the show next, any other questions you'd like me to ask, any other detours you'd like me to take in my chat, or if you'd like me to shut up more, that's cool, too. Um nothing's off off the table. Um, we'll see you next time.

Josh: All right. Appreciate.

— Yeah. All right.