How a Marine Weapons Tech Became a Software Engineer (No Degree)

Speaker labels and mis-heard names are corrected by hand; the words are as spoken, filler and all.

Preview clips

Zachary: that was ultimately a choice too was like wanting to build a family. Um, and also having kind of the the freedom that was one of the things I had seen some of leadership and I was just like I don't really want to be like that where you have there they're all gung-ho and like you're like but are you really there for like your family at home? Like they're they're at work at 4:00 in the morning and then they don't leave till 8:00 in the evening and you're like that's not that's not what I wanted to be personally.

Um, so that was a big factor. And then also just kind of having your freedom again. For me, I I got to a point where I don't necessarily know if I was going to be the right leader for my Marines. And I think that also helped kind of like transition me out of the milit. I just didn't know if I was in it for the right reasons anymore.

PJ: You had a value difference.

Zachary: Yeah.

Conversation

PJ: Hey, welcome to the Mastering the Military Transition Series of the Prize Podcast. My name is PJ and I'll be your host. The purpose of this podcast is to share the stories of those who have successfully transitioned out of the military so you can see the tips and tricks necessary to have a successful transition of your own. That way, you don't have to stumble across some of the same things that myself and my team at Prize had to struggle with. At Prize, we believe in a world where all enjoy the freedom to grow. That's why we're developing the Prize app. If you'd like to learn more, please check out the prize.vet link in the show notes below.

— Yeah.

PJ: Hey fam, welcome to our next episode of the U Mastering the Military Transition series of the Prize Podcast. Today we have Zachary Matthews with us, Prior Marine 2111. Um, I'm going to go ahead and let him actually do a bit of introduction today. So with that,

please give me a high level overview, you know, of your service, how many deployments you did, when were you in?

Zachary: Yeah. Uh, so I served in the Marine Corps from 2013 to 2021. Um, I was started off as a 2111 and then I transitioned to 2112. Um,

and for those who don't know what that is,

that's a precision weapons technician. Um, big in the Marine Corps. They they're the ones that were like the start of the Marine Corps's like sniper program. They uh like manufacturing the Remington 500 sniper rifles and things like that.

Yeah. So, uh, that was something that I really wanted to do and I I got to do that and then I deployed in my second enlistment. Uh, I was stationed in Camp Pendleton and I deployed to the Philippines. So, just one deployment in those eight years.

PJ: That's cool, man. And when were you in what was the time frame?

Zachary: Uh, 2013 to 2021.

PJ: And you got out as a

Zachary: uh E5 sergeant.

PJ: Yeah. Beautiful.

Yeah. And then he got out and got into software engineering which um who those of you don't do know me it's near and dear to my heart at least. So Kohi welcome so much. I appreciate welcome so much. Um welcome. Thank you for coming. Uh I really do appreciate your time.

Zachary: Yeah thank you.

PJ: Um today we're going to walk through you know your service and then what it was really like for you one while you were in but then after you got out. So appreciate the 50,000 foot view there. Um, if we were to fast forward or not fast forward but zoom in on that period of like you getting into the military, please walk me through that a little bit. How what was your journey like?

Zachary: Yeah, so uh for me the the Marine Corps was something I've always wanted to be in. I think if you ask any of my like my mom, dad, any family members? It's kind of like ever since I was a little kid like I always wanted to be in the Marine Corps.

PJ: Wow.

Zachary: Um and I I only had one relative in the Marine Corps. My great great uncle was in the Marine Corps. He served uh in World War II and he was actually in the battle of Iwo Jima for

um

something really important in the history of the Marine Corps. So something that's kind of uh big with me too. Um so I've always wanted to be in the Marine Corps and um I knew that's what I wanted to do outside of high school. So I think when as soon as I could I think what it's like 16 is like the earliest I signed up for like the delayed entry program.

PJ: Oh really?

Zachary: So yeah, for like two years I was uh working with like the recruiters and doing like their PT and things like that. And then

um a month or two after I graduated high school, I shipped off to boot camp.

PJ: Wow. How were your parents with that?

Zachary: Um I my dad I think when I was younger um he was all he was kind of all about it gung-hob once it came time he was a little more on edge. But, uh, for for my mom, she kind of knew it's what I always wanted and and I came from a small town here in Pennsylvania and

it's just one of those things I wanted to to get out and see the world, see what it had to offer.

PJ: Understand that.

Zachary: And I got to do that. So, I really uh appreciated that that part of the Marine Corps for sure. Yeah.

PJ: Yeah. Yeah, dude. I totally agree. So, all right. So, you went in um you said you were 2111 first. Yeah,

Zachary: 2111. Yeah. I kind of I I went in I wanted to be a combat engineer, I think, is what I had signed up.

PJ: Oh, it's so much fun. You can play with the C4 and blow things out.

Zachary: But, uh I think as as most Marines will know, um unless you sign up for 0311, I think you're not guaranteed really where you're going to go.

PJ: Sure.

Zachary: Um so after uh boot camp, I think they give you your MOS designation and they said 2111. I was like, "What? I don't even know what that is." They're like, "Small arms repair technician." I'm like, "I don't know what that is."

PJ: Mhm.

Zachary: Um and then after Camp Lejeune at like um I forget what they call it. It's like the the general like combat training for the Marine Corps.

PJ: MCT.

Zachary: MCT. Yeah.

Um Marine combat training. Um

they they said I was going to Fort Lee, Virginia, and that's where my MOS school was. And I got shipped there. I was there uh for maybe like six or eight months.

Uh I was in Fort Lee and that's kind of just like

it's an army base. It's like army arty base and

PJ: army that also put their bases in the middle of nowhere.

Zachary: Yeah. So, uh we got to to do uh like we were out there PTing and you see like the the army army cats out there and they're doing their thing. I think that that's like their uh kind of

their like combat like one of their schools after they do like their basic training too. So, um

that was interesting there. And then you kind of you get used to things there and you think you're kind of a real Marine, but then you get sent to the fleet gap of that and

you get uh kicked down a notch. You get cuz you're there for so long and then you have your the new Marines coming in from boot camp and you're just like I'm more senior than you, you know, it's like the whole thing, but you haven't even made it anywhere. So you're still in a school setting. Um but yeah, and then my first uh duty station was Hawaii. So I got lucky. I was

PJ: Oh, that's not terrible.

Zachary: Hawaii Marine out there, third Marines's out there.

Uh, and that was fun. Um,

I got to do a lot of cool things. Some training exercises. Um,

the RIMPAC, which is like where like the the the military's like war games they do. I got to be a part of that twice. And um, Balikatan, which was like a training exercise with the Philippines.

PJ: I bet that's cool.

Zachary: So, um, got to do that. Got to to ride AAVs, which is like the amphibious vehicles. Yeah. Yeah.

That's the scariest thing I will say is like when you're riding that off the back of a boat

cuz they tell you you get in that thing and it's like this metal box and you're just like you're right directly like crushed in there like a can of sardines to everyone else and they're like just so you know when it comes off the boat it gets completely submerged and you're like what do you mean like this thing goes this metal box goes completely underwater?

PJ: Yeah. Yeah.

Zachary: We came up though.

PJ: Well that's a good thing man. I can Wow. Yeah. I can see that. Everybody had to play with those.

Cool, man. So, like I can only imagine the fear coming off an AA there. Um, and also the only experience I have with that is like looking back and and watching, you know, like Save the Private Ryan. So, like a very very different experience, although I think that was a different um vehicle as well.

Zachary: Yeah.

PJ: Um, yeah. How was your time in Hawaii?

Zachary: Uh, it was good. I mean, I would say like when I was there, I kind of didn't like it. And you're like, you're like landlocked. Like, yeah. I got out to the beaches and like had fun. But now that I look back at it as like being out and then also like as my second enlistment, I was like, man, I was like, I don't know why I didn't like it there as much. And and I think a lot of the reason too like

it it's like the Marine Corps, but I think the Hawaii kind of Marines is like a completely different animal than like Camp Pendleton or like 29.

PJ: Oh, sure. Their own culture.

Zachary: Yeah, they have their own culture. Um, so it was kind of more laidback and but then going to like Camp Pendleton and being like, we're in the real like Marine Corps. Then you're like, okay, I see. Now that I'm older, it's like I I could go back to to Hawaii.

PJ: That's funny how that goes. Um, that's cool. So, you you said you deployed to the Philippines.

Zachary: To the Philippines. I deployed to the Philippines. Um, that was in my second enlistment. Um, I was assigned to uh First Marine uh First Marine Raiders in Camp Pendleton. So I got to deploy with them. I got to do some cool training with them as well. Um, and that was a good experience. Um, I met a lot of cool people out there. And the that's like that's a whole another world when it comes to the Marine Corps, too. And that's one of the things I look back on now is like, man, I was

that's something that I learned about sooner cuz that would have been a really like interesting thing to like have gone and and done and see if you can like make it, you know, cuz they're on like a whole another level.

PJ: You mean like

Zachary: it's like I become like a Marine Raider, you know, like

PJ: Oh yeah.

Zachary: Yeah. That's that they're on a whole another level.

Yeah. So that's something I look back upon and I kind of wish I would have at least tried, you know, to see people do it. Like obviously not everyone makes it but at least sure you don't have that regret you know of not trying and seeing what it could have been but um looking back it's like maybe after my first enlistment that would have been something I would have looked into but after the second I think kind of I was just mentally

checked out and ready to to move on to learning better things.

PJ: So that was when you went on that deployment.

Zachary: Uh after the came back from deployment. Yeah. After I came back from an appointment, I had my enlistment papers for my third enlistment. And that was like the it was like the third enlistment. Once you get there, it's like you're you're in it for the the 20, right? Cuz at that point, you're done. You're at four years. You're already more than halfway. It's like why not?

Um so I had a big decision ahead of me. And um luckily my wife who supported me the whole time we were married and I was in the Marine Corps for four and a half, five years. while while I was in the Marine Corps, she was with me and supported my decision. She was like, "If you're not happy, like then it's not something like she's like, "Don't do it for me. Like, do it like do it cuz you want to do it." So,

I I was I was luck luckily I had that kind of support system from from her and then that led me to kind of like where my career path is today.

PJ: That's beautiful. Having someone who has your back like that and your interests um in mind is is not always something that we come by.

Yeah. Um, that's beautiful. And And she was a pilot.

Zachary: Uh, well, not in the military. She's a nurse in the Army Reserve, but then

PJ: Oh, cool.

Zachary: She became a helicopter pilot. After I got out, we we moved to southern Utah and she went to school to become a helicopter pilot where she did that for uh a little over a year then until we had our son uh this past July. So, she obviously couldn't fly with with that.

— Right. Right. But she's itching. She's it. Thank you. She's itching to get back for sure. Yeah.

PJ: So, I I want to rewind a little bit here.

You

you mentioned something that is probably a very very tough decision, right? Like

I'm I'm in, you know, I I get my first experience where it's like, holy this is cool,

right? Like I actually enjoy this.

And there's probably other things and maybe this played a role, but like administrative BS or whatever it is where you're kind of like gh but I hate that.

Zachary: Mhm.

PJ: Um, walk me through that decision process. You know, like you're you're at a time where you again, you saw the the Raiders and and like maybe that's something I'd want to go and do.

Zachary: Yeah.

PJ: You know, you're you're building a family.

Walk me through that.

Zachary: I think that was that was ultimately a choice too was like wanting to build a family. Um, and also having kind of the the freedom where the Marine Corps doesn't necessarily give you that freedom. The military in general doesn't give you necessarily the freedom to start a family and and be there for

us. Yeah.

Um I I knew that if we were to start a family, I didn't necessarily want to be gone all the time. I wanted to be there um

for now my son now. I want to be there for like him to grow up. I I like And not to say like if you're in the military, you're not going to be there for sure, but it makes it a lot harder. Um, and I think that people that are in the military have issues like a lot of times with like that family side of it.

PJ: Sure.

Zachary: And cuz being in the military is a big stressor, especially like you have your own kids at work basically, especially when you get into your leadership positions. It's like it feels like you're dealing with kids.

PJ: Yeah, man.

Zachary: So then you come home and you have your own kid to deal with and it's it's kind of one of those things where it's are you mentally all there when you get home from work? And that was one of the things that I had seen some of leadership and I was just like I don't really want to be like that where you have there they're all gung-ho and like you're like but are you really there for like your family at home? Like they're they're at work at 4:00 in the morning and then they don't leave till 8:00 in the evening and you're like that's not that's not what I wanted to be personally, right?

Um so that was a big factor. And then also just kind of having your freedom again. I think um one of the things I I will say I miss is like the structure and like the camaraderie and like the the kind of team that you you have. But like just having freedom to to kind of make your own choices and kind of travel a beard.

PJ: Grow a beard.

Zachary: Yeah. You know, like just that was one of the big things too. And uh as you get up there in leadership positions like obviously your responsibilities become more. And it's not that I didn't want responsibilities. It's just like I just didn't know if I was in it for the right reasons anymore.

PJ: You had a value difference.

Zachary: Yeah.

PJ: And and I totally can appreciate that. And I think that, you know, one of the one of the things that if I were to relate to this at all very early on, I remember it in in TBS or the basic school for me. Um they they stress something that I took very much so to heart. I think we all do, you know, of like, hey, you're going to face a time in your career where you have a marine that potentially is like wants to take their life

or whatever. Like, I I'm out in town, I get in trouble, whatever it may be,

and you have to pause your family life, you have to pause your home life

and make put that marine first.

Zachary: Yeah.

PJ: Right. And and I know me personally, I took that very seriously

to the detriment of my relationship,

right? Um I mean, no one wants to feel second or third. And I get that we all have this like we're doing it for a reason. We're serving something bigger than ourselves.

And our personal relationships can take that very personally, right? Oh, wait. I'm not I'm not first,

right? And that's hard. That's a hard thing to do. And and I and I don't like I I see you and I and I I see what you're saying like that value difference

is okay.

We all have different things and they come at different points in our life,

right? And I will say that if we take that mindset out into the civilian world a lot of times where we're like all of a sudden now like oh no this is this is more important. This is more important.

That can lead to some big

problems in relationships and stuff that you may not always want.

Zachary: Yeah. And it's like I I love the the Marine Corps for that where it's like your leadership like you're it's like a brotherhood, right? Like

everyone puts

the other Marines above themselves, right?

And and I was all about that for my first enlistment and probably a little into my second enlistment, but then it kind of just started like fading off where I'm like you have like these kids that are coming in and it's like they're so like immature and you're trying you're just trying to like it's like it's just like

it's like hurting cats, you it is like hurting and and kind of after that

PJ: leadership is hard man.

Zachary: Yeah, leadership leadership is definitely hard and and I learned a lot of things from it. Um but I just think for me I I got to a point where I don't necessarily know if I was going to be the right leader for my Marines. And I think that also helped kind of like transition me out of the military. like kind of helped that that decision where I'm like made like like I said like mentally I just wasn't in anymore. So I knew that

in the future I didn't think I I was going to give it my all like

and and I think that's would be to the detriment of the Marine Corps or to the unit. Right. So I think that also kind of helped.

PJ: Well I commend you for that honesty.

Zachary: Mhm.

PJ: I know that I've been in positions too where like it's hard to make a decision like that. And ultimately that just the other day I got offered like a really really cool you know you know someone wanted to nominate me for like office in like a local board and I'm like that's amazing. Like I'm truly humbled but I would be doing a disservice to everything else that I have going on and you guys if if I did that.

Zachary: Yeah.

PJ: Really mature you know of you to actually make that decision. Um, okay, cool. So, you do make the decision.

Zachary: Yeah.

PJ: Was there anything lingering?

Zachary: Uh, lingering as in

PJ: like when you when you actually then enacted the decision.

Zachary: Oh, yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. Like I think when I decided to get out and I I I signed like I had said, I had the reenlistment paperwork in front of me and it was like it was all filled out, ready to go. I signed it and I'm in for another four years. Um, and then I kind of made the decision that I didn't want to do that and I started the the transition

the transition out. And I think starting those classes like what classes there are and like and and I think that's another issue with the military obviously in general is like the transition

preparedness which you're really not prepared and they really

they do what they think they're doing like they can the most. But I don't think necessarily that's the case. But just kind of learning like they're just like just you're not going to have a set schedule. You're not going to know what you're doing. You're on your own, right? Like and I think that's kind of where I was like uhoh.

PJ: Mhm.

Zachary: Am I making like the right choice? It's like I kind of appreciated that for the last eight years. Like

knowing what I was supposed to be doing, right? Especially when you're doing the same job. Like you're doing you're you have your MOS. You're doing the same job. You know what you're doing. Obviously, as you move up in um leadership positions, obviously you take on some more responsibilities, but generally your job stays the same. Um and most Marine Corps units, they

have the same like schedule, right? Like your PT in the morning and you go to work and then you're off or your PT in the afternoon or whatever and then

um you're off and then you're on call, right? Until you're on call once you're like a corporal and above, right? You're you're on call for anything that's going on,

right? Um especially when you live at the barracks is like you're like the you're the NCO in the barracks, right? Then then you're on call for if anyone's doing anything stupid.

PJ: Yeah.

Zachary: So, um so yeah, definitely like that was like not and also not knowing, right? Like not knowing what comes next. It's like I kind of started school um while I was like transitioning. Like once I figured out that I wasn't going to stay in, I did kind of take school more seriously. I had started cuz I had a good friend of mine um kind of teach me about like things that benefits that you have that I think not a lot of service members take advantage of and that's like

PJ: such as

Zachary: tuition assistance.

Yeah. Um, that's one thing I think maybe I heard about it but didn't know about it and I didn't know like while you're in each year they give you money to take college classes and it basically covers right your college classes for that year obviously up to a certain point depending on the school but there's a lot of programs that have like they have a VA branch of their school so they know kind of how to kind of put you through school utilizing that. And I wish I really wish I would have known about that sooner.

So that's another thing I would tell veterans like or service members that are in now is definitely utilize tuition assistance if you know you want to go to school

and you know you want to get a degree and you're going to get out because then you get out you can already if you start early enough you can already have a degree when you get out.

PJ: Yeah. Yeah.

Zachary: Um you can also save your GI Bill after you get out to do anything else you know. Um,

PJ: so is that tuition assistance? Is that the same as GI Bill? Is that separate?

Zachary: No. So, it it comes out of a different pot, right? So, you can use tuition assistance and it come it comes out of a separate pot. It doesn't touch your GI Bill. Um, so you have basically free money to go to school while you're actively serving. Um, that won't touch your benefits outside and then you're just knocking away school while you're in. And I think the challenge with that though is doing school while you're in because

PJ: for sure especially if you have a family.

Zachary: Yeah. If you have a family, if your job you're act like you have a lot of things going on in your job, just finding the time for that, right?

Um but I think some schools do a really good job um at their courses being set up if specifically for um veterans. There's programs out there

um that make it easy, right? Or to like start and pause or like we'll we'll have um

PJ: You're a part-time student.

Zachary: Parttime students, right? Yeah. Yeah. Just doing like a couple classes, but I mean, even knocking like your generals out while you're serving, like that would be a big help when you get out. Um,

PJ: and do you know how you qualify for that?

Zachary: I I mean, I don't really think there's any qualification steps. I think you you just have to apply like you find a school, right, that you want and I think I think the school generally just has to accept like VA benefits, right? Um, so I know you probably have to go to a school that one has like an online, right? Or like a satellite campus. I know Camp Pendleton, I believe, had a satellite campus um for different schools.

PJ: Oh, you mean like on base?

Zachary: On base?

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Like American University or something.

But I did um um I found a school that um National University for anybody wondering. I found a school and they're veteran like their program in general is very veteran friendly or active duty service member friendly. Um, and yeah, so you just I I believe your unit will have um a representative that can help you with tuition assistance. Um, it's kind of just one of those things you kind of have to reach out to your admin. Um, and they'll know who to point you to. And um I believe there's probably like a form you just have to fill out with your school what degree you're going towards and then it kind of just sets up and it automatically pays until you're out of money which for the most part I think um if you're using it the school will set it up to like kind of spread you out throughout the year,

PJ: right?

Zachary: And so you're not having to worry about it. And then at the beginning of the new fiscal year that money refreshes and you have it I don't know what it's I think it's like $4,500 or something like that a year.

Okay. Um, so obviously if depending on the school, right? But I think if

PJ: go to Harvard, that's not going to cut.

Zachary: Yeah. I mean, I think I think the the smart thing to do while you're in would be to find a school that that would cover like the generals and then transfer your credit what you get out and then some some schools off often um you can transfer some of your skills from the military and that'll cover some that'll they'll give you some credit.

PJ: They'll give you credits for that. That's really cool, man. So, did you do that while you were in?

Zachary: Yeah. So, I did that. Um, I think I started that before my deployment. Um, and then obviously I paused it for the deployment. I didn't want to be doing school on deployment. Um, and then started back up. But my issue was not knowing what I wanted to do. I think I swapped degree paths like three or four times,

which thankfully all the generals are usually the same. Um, depending I think

switching to computer science, I had to take a different math. Um, so I had to do one extra like general that I wouldn't have had to done if I if I had stayed um on another degree. I was like going for like military history and then I was going for like uh a law degree cuz um the US Marshals had come to

PJ: right TAP.

Zachary: Yeah. They had job fair

they had come and they were like talking about how like what they do and things. I was like that could be interesting. And then I looked into it more and it's like you're just standing duty for like 24 hours. It's like I don't want to do that.

PJ: Yeah, there's a time and a place. I think that Yeah, you probably made the right call, especially when you think about the values and the reason you were getting out to begin with. Yeah. So, you know, I think this actually illustrates a really beautiful point is like when you're transitioning out, you know, there's a lot of there are a lot of options and some of that's very scary

because like you like you said, you have this structure, you know, where to be, when to be there, like what to say, what to wear, like all of that. You're giving your haircuts, you're given like I don't know where that is, but like you're given like all of the stuff and then it's like all of a sudden figure it out.

And on top of that, you now have a like an identity crisis. Yeah.

Right. And you got to figure that out too, which is a lot. It's a whole lot.

And I think that I like that you're you're illustrating this, you know, two things. One being that it's okay if you don't know

at first.

Zachary: Oh, for sure. Yeah. And that's, you know,

one thing that I I wish somebody had

kind of told me that cuz I think I stressed out about that.

PJ: Yeah.

Zachary: And I was like, I need to find what I'm going to do before I get out. Like I there's no way I can get out.

PJ: Be so decisive.

Zachary: Yeah. And I was like, there's no way I can get out and not know what I'm doing. And thankfully, um, through a family friend, I kind of got pushed into like the software engineering side. So,

PJ: how did that happen?

Zachary: Yeah. So, um, my wife's cousin, um, had done a boot camp and software boot camps. That was kind of when they were starting to become, uh, a thing. And I think I actually think they're kind of dying down cuz I think companies aren't really seeing boot camps as being like real world like education or experience, which I would disagree with. I think I I learned I mean, I learned a lot in a very short period of time and it helped me my first job that that I had gotten.

Um, and she was just like, "Hey, like you're transitioning out. I don't know like what your plan is, but I just finished this boot camp. I got this really cool job out of it. I learned a lot. If this is something you're interested, you should check it out." And it was um a boot camp in Utah, which is like where my wife and I were moving anyway,

PJ: right?

Zachary: Um, so I looked into it. I met with like the like the guy that was running it and uh we had a conversation about what I wanted to do and he was like, "Yeah, like we we take like we have a veteran like uh a VA like person here that

PJ: Oh, cool.

Zachary: and they had a couple veterans there as well." And I kind of I met with him and he was like talking to me about the program and like that they take like the GI Bill and it was only going to take like a portion of benefits. I once I finished that boot camp, it used the GI Bill. I still have enough GI Bill after doing that boot camp to finish my degree.

PJ: Oh, that's cool. It's cool that it took the GI Bill.

Zachary: Yeah. And so I think that I don't necessarily know if most do take the GI Bill.

Um

PJ: Yeah.

Zachary: Yeah. So, but I think now they're like an accredited they're they like got

wrapped into like the schools like programs. So, I think that was probably they're probably on their way to that. So the the GI Bill kind of saw that and

PJ: Yeah. And there's ways around that. Like I I used VR&E.

Zachary: Yeah.

PJ: Which

Yeah. Um so I guess the point that I was I was I wanted to to make there too was that like when you go to TAP or any of these other job fairs, you see a lot of the same thing. And and like I I guess what I was trying to paint the picture of is, you know, we're we're in a point where we're vulnerable because the security is gone,

you know?

Zachary: Yeah.

PJ: Who am I even like all that is gone? And you want to then seek security. I need something.

Zachary: Yeah.

PJ: And most people when they get out then okay, what's familiar,

you know, TAP job fairs. Oh, there's marshals, there's um security guards, there's ICE, there's

police, like just going to police department.

Um

I'm not saying there's anything wrong with any of that. If that's your cup of tea, sweet.

I would also urge you to maybe go out there and explore a little bit because a lot of the beautiful things that you're pointing out here is that like

you were given a lot of skills and ability in in the military, in the Marine Corps that has led you to be successful in this capacity. So those soft skills. Yeah. Okay. So we didn't have the hard skill of like programming. It's camp, right? But like the soft skills of like leadership or to communicate,

take it from someone who has worked in the engineering world for a while.

Um

a lot of engineers struggle when it comes to communication.

And your ability to communicate and be a leader and a problem solver in this space is indispensable. Those are the people that are truly successful in this capacity.

Yeah. And I would urge you to take all of that ability that you got and bring that out to the real world because that is where you shine.

Zachary: And I I think a lot of like a lot of transitioning like service members or veterans like like you said they they latch on to something that's like familiar and and what they think that their skills most evenly kind of uh

would point them towards. But I I would urge you to kind of look out and see like what you're actually interested in and kind of chase that like those fallbacks, right? like the police board or something like they'll always be there.

They'll always be there. It's always going to be a needed thing. So, it's like if you go and kind of move on to like a a job that's kind of out there, something that you kind of it's like a niche and it doesn't work out, there's always things to fall back and and we don't like to fall back. I know like you kind of have like your goal and you want to do that, but I think um I think most like service members, veterans, they should try for it. Like you've done something already that's like most people don't do.

PJ: Yes.

Zachary: So, the chances of you being able to do something again that maybe not most people do is higher than if you weren't going to try at all, you know?

PJ: Well, we're also given discipline.

Zachary: Yeah.

PJ: And the the the knowledge of how to be resourceful, right? Like that's some skill. These are skills, right? Like you're given commander intent. You're not told how we could do it.

Zachary: Yeah.

PJ: Right. Just go get it done. All right. Well, I got it. I'll get it done. Right. But but that's so valuable, man. the problem solving that problem solving piece of that is so incredibly valuable you can you can take it anywhere right I I can think like when I think of like you know I'll again leverage engineering world if you think of any of these big companies and we've talked about this extensively on this podcast at this point

it's the will

I will do the job verse I can do the job

now I get it though I do want to not discount anyone's experience here because the the point of the matter is you're at this dichotomy. You're at this branch in the road where I have a everyone has a need for security

and all of that's being stripped away and now you're trying to grasp that in some way, shape or form.

Zachary: Yeah.

PJ: Most people coming out of the military don't last beyond 6 months at their first job for exactly the reason you're illustrating.

There's probably a way to balance that.

Zachary: Yeah.

PJ: Right.

Zachary: Yeah.

PJ: And I commend you for taking that leap of faith, too.

Zachary: Yeah. And and I think just not losing faith in yourself, right? Like I think that's kind of uh what people might struggle with a lot. Um when I finished that boot camp, it took me maybe over a year to then land my first job.

PJ: Okay.

Zachary: And and during that time, I was just like, "This isn't going to happen. I'm not going to like there's no way like I'm not a software engineer. Like that's not what I did. That's not what I'm going to do." And like again, having a support system, I think that's also super strong is like finding a support system.

PJ: Talk me about that. What's the support system?

Zachary: So my like just having like um friends like that I had worked with previously that had gotten out and and they were doing like they had transitioned into tech or like again go back to like my wife and I know not everyone's like fortunate enough to like have that. Um, but for me, she was a big supporter of mine and she was like, "No, like she would call me down and be like, "No, like it's going to happen." Like you you spend all this time and effort like it's it's going to happen. It's bound to happen, right? Like you have all these skills, right? Like might not necessarily be

what they're looking for on paper, but someone's going to notice those skills and someone's going to take

the risk and right risk is

— I mean I think that's big companies, right? Like it's risk for them, right? Absolutely.

Zachary: If you're not exactly on paper what they have, but someone's going to take a risk and then you're going to show them that like they made a good decision and that that's ultimately what happened. Um,

so she was a good friend

to me. So yeah. Yeah,

PJ: that's that's cool.

Zachary: Mhm. So um so yeah, I mean just kind of having a support system um really benefits you and that doesn't necessarily need to be people you know, right? Like there's plenty of groups out there. There's plenty of veterans groups out there that you can like reach out to, find like the veterans all over, right? Like

me and you, we found each other. Like you're in Allentown and I'm like 30 minutes away. It's like what are the odds and now we're like working together and

um so there's people out there you kind of just have to look and and and not give up. But having that faith in yourself like

don't give up on yourself. Don't give up on your dreams, right? like yeah

like

you can

pretty much do like whatever you put your mind toward towards, right? Like I think that's kind of as like what your parents say to you when you're a kid, right? But I mean I think I I think it it's true, right? Um,

like you said, having those soft skills, like for me, I precision weapons maintainer is just like if I were to just transfer those skills, I'd be like a gunsmith working at like a mom and pop shop, like gunsmith somewhere, like fixing

granddad's like hunting rifle, you know, like um,

but I knew that's not like it's a a hobby like could be a hobby of mine. It's a passion of mine. and it's something I'm interested in, but I knew that's not what I wanted my kind of career to be.

Um, but like you said, like problem solving. A lot of my job was problem solving. A lot of my job was QA, so quality assurance, and those are two big things in the software engineering space. So, it's like those skills are transferable. They may not be from the same like work experience, but it's a transferable skill that always going to be with you, right? like and just being programmed to think problem solving and QA like you're just programmed and wired now to think about that and that's something that I take with me in my job. It's like something that I always think about. Yeah.

Um and um or just like ways of thinking, right? Like problem solving, just having that kind of your brain wired up to think about different ways how to break problems down and kind of uh how to attack them, right? And that's something that I leverage even now that I've been out almost

what 5 years now.

PJ: Yeah, man. I I totally hear you and actually I totally agree and I think that again you're illustrating something that is is important looking at what your job was in the military, whatever it may have been.

Zoom out a little bit,

right? It wasn't just, you know, knocking on precision weapons. It's like, oh no, like I'm also a leader. I'm also a I I know how to communicate. I'm also doing sales.

Zachary: Yeah.

PJ: Right. How often do you now have to like sell the commander on something or like you know you have an idea or a plan and you have to get it across. That's sales, right?

Zachary: And the management.

PJ: The management, right? Um there's a lot of things that are super transferable. It just may take one calming down a little bit obviously because of the security piece. Like we need that, right? But then zoom out, challenge yourself and be like, okay, what are the different fields out there? I mean like finances that

Zachary: that's problem solving too. Yeah.

PJ: Right. Um it's just numbers. Maybe you were, you know, someone who was doing just maybe you were doing inventory.

Zachary: Yeah.

PJ: You know what I mean?

Um they're all it's all very transferable. Um

so okay, so getting out, you know, like you you went and got your first job. Help me like help me break down like the this the journey there. Like how what was it like getting your first job? What was it like getting into that first job?

Zachary: Yeah. So um like I said I had finished like that software engineering boot camp and they have like at the end of it um they kind of they put you on a project and it's like real world kind of experience. They they have like some companies that are kind of like

partnered with them to kind of give you some like easy task. So I worked on um they had uh a Firebase

Apple they had application running on Firebase and they were having some bugs with it. So, I got to do some experience with like debugging like their Firebase, like how that was set up. Um, do I remember any of that now? Not really. Have I used it at all? No.

PJ: Yeah. Yeah.

Zachary: Um,

PJ: oh, don't worry, you will.

Zachary: Yeah.

Um, but then they give you like some resume writing help and

PJ: Oh, cool.

Zachary: Um, like the Marine Corps, like military in general, they do that. Um, now are they do they really help you in any way that's kind of meaningful with your resume? I I I wouldn't really say so. I I don't think my resume was very strong coming out of the military. Um but they had a a resume and resume like writing portion of it and it was more like tech focused, right? And so I think definitely that's another thing is that's important is your resume kind of tailoring it to the field that you want to go to. Yeah.

Um the you just have like a generalized uh kind of resume when you come out of like your transition program and that might be different now, right? I I hope it's different now. Who knows? But um

PJ: yeah, I mean just say it.

Zachary: Yeah.

Um but yeah, so I had a resume and kind of finding jobs like looking to see what I wanted to do. I I did that at first and that didn't really get me anywhere and I kind of that that was like the first crushing part is where you're like six months go by and you're putting all these resumes out and half the time you're not even getting a response. Um that's really and I think that's just the issue with like the I think maybe I don't know if it's necessarily just the software engineering world.

PJ: It's not it's it's it's been a tough job market for like fiveish years.

Zachary: Yeah. So, I I think that's just been an issue with the the job market in general. Um, no feedback, right? And it's like, but that's just something now I've kind of come to expect. Um, so just pushing my resume out and then

branching off of that, like learning what other jobs could my skills land me, right?

PJ: Yeah.

Zachary: So, that's why my first position um was as a quality assurance engineer in software. Yeah. Um and then um so I kind of targeted myself towards that uh and I had the skills for it right like eight years of that quality assurance and problem solving when you're writing Rancor. So um that really helped me as well as like the communication um and like you said mentioned it like especially in the software engineering like communication is hard to come by because you have these super smart people

but they aren't really used to communicating with people and I think especially now in like a remote world it's like

PJ: dude co right

Zachary: too. So it's even different cuz now you're just like talking to someone through a camera if that if you even turn on your camera for a meeting. You know some places don't even require that. So, it's like you're not even talking um face to face and then you have the people that just have issues communicating with like what they're doing or what they need help with. And

that's one of the things I learned as well quick is like

you're not an expert. Like you might think you're an expert or you might think you have all this experience, but ask questions, right?

PJ: Yes.

Zachary: Um but yeah, so it took me, like I said, a little over a year. Um, and it was I did get hired for a quality assurance position and at the time I was like, "Oh man, I really wanted to be a software engineer." But I had to think like, yeah,

everyone's got to start somewhere, right?

PJ: And it's a journey,

I think. And I met a lot of people along the way though. Like I started my software engineering journey as a quality assurance engineer and now I've been doing it for a decade, even more.

So, um, it's not all too different from how a lot of people get there and stepping stone.

Zachary: Yeah. Okay. And the company I got hired on for, they had prom like there was like a kind of like a handshake that like, yeah, we'll we'll get you to software engineer. And I'm just very I'm happy and I I owe it to them that they followed through on that promise and got me to to where I am today because I could have just spent my three and a half almost four years with them as a quality assurance engineer and then I'd have

like I would have been moving on with only that experience and I wouldn't be able to move on to a software engineering position necessarily.

PJ: Well, don't sell yourself short there.

Zachary: Yeah,

PJ: because you could have just as easily gone in there and like not done anything. you know what I mean? And not made the best of the quality assurance engineering position.

Zachary: Yeah. I definitely made sure that I put in the work because I wanted them to see that like like I like you took a risk on me, I'm paying that back so that you'll take a risk on me again in the future and put me into a software engineering position. And they did. And um through that I learned so much and it definitely was a big jump and I don't necessarily think I was ready for it. But I learned a lot from the people that I worked with and like I said before like asking questions that communication being able to clearly like identify what my problems are and what I need help with.

PJ: Sure.

Zachary: And in a manner that's going to be helpful for the team to understand, right? Um, and that kind of really helped boost my productivity, my efficiency, and kind of learning and and and as well as like knowing what questions to ask and where to look for resources, right? That's a challenge, especially now. There's so many resources out there. Um,

there's a lot of good resources out there and then maybe not some some great resources out there. But um just depending like just leaning on the people that you work with and kind of having that comfortability and maybe that's not necessarily everywhere that you have that that you feel that way.

PJ: No, it's going to be cultural differences.

Zachary: Yeah. So the there's certainly finding a company with a cultural that culture that like aligns with yours. I know that

PJ: oh my god

easier said than done. Um

yeah, but that's huge. Yeah.

You know, working for someone that is absolutely miserable or you hate like that. It's I know this is cliche but life is too short.

Zachary: Yeah,

that's that's true. Um yeah, so definitely and the culture that I found was great and it was it helped foster me into kind of what I could be, right? They like helped me see my potential and it was kind of a good ego boost for ego boost for me. Um, but I still obviously like impostor syndrome is out there and

PJ: oh yeah,

Zachary: it's like I think like I could be doing like the easiest thing and I'm like am I even doing this right? It's like

PJ: yo

Zachary: it's like I'm just need to put some text on like a web page. Am I is this the way that it's supposed to be done? Is there a better way to be doing this? It's like that's a struggle that I think um not necessarily just in the engineering space. I think I think it's prevalent very prevalent in the engineering space and a lot of people I've talked to

PJ: well the stakes are high.

Zachary: Yeah. A lot of people I've talked to that have, like I said, decades of experience, they still are like,

"Yeah,

am I doing this like the correct way?" And um but I think people being able to identify that, like identify it, understand it, but not let it hold you back, right, is like like in the engineering side, push the PR up and let people review it, right? That's the only way you're going to learn. It's like don't be afraid to look dumb. Um, and I I think as veterans, that's something that we have issues with because

whether you got out at four years, eight years, retired,

you're the expert in your field, right? Like that's your MOS. That's what you're doing. You're known for that. Like you're the subject matter expert, like the SME, as they they say. Like so not being that anymore once you get out and transferring into a a new job, that's a really difficult concept to grasp.

PJ: It is.

Zachary: But I think if you can get over that and know that that's not you anymore and you're not expected to be that anymore, like there's a time and place for that, right? Like as you move up like and we go back to like software engineering because that's our career thing, but as you move up into like a leadership, right? like then obviously you're right to be like a subject matter expert.

PJ: Let's put this in context. When you first joined the military, I don't know. I don't know if maybe you heard this, but I know I did. Like in order to be a good leader, you need to be what?

Zachary: Uh like good learner.

PJ: A good follower.

Zachary: A good follower. Yeah.

PJ: Right.

We were all white belts at one point.

You know what I mean? And I and I love this correlary of of like if in you know martial arts you go from white belt to black belt and then where do you go back to white belt right like you put on a black a black uniform and some of them anyway you put on like a black unifor right like but but the there's I can't remember what book this was I read um I think it was um

uh Zen Guitar I think is actually what it was but like in the book he talks about how you you walk through, you know, the white belt to black belt and I think the metaphor is supposed to be as you continue wearing it, it gets dirty because you're like putting in the work and it becomes dark, but then you trade in for a new belt at some point is white again. Yeah.

Zachary: Right.

PJ: But that that whole idea of like being in order to be a good leader, you have to be a good follower.

It's because that cycle never ends. You have to be able to like look dumb. And in fact, I think one of my favorite things to do like at Meta is like um how can I look dumb today? It's a game. You know what I mean? It's a game. And then now like don't like obviously like do something negligent.

Zachary: Yeah.

PJ: Um but like it's in instead putting yourself out there in a way that could be very uncomfortable. Dude,

these podcasts first couple episodes look back they're awkward. You know what I mean? like you know but but it was putting yourself out there to like I'm now getting the experience I'm getting the reps I'm getting better I'm getting better so I I do think that like there's something

that is hard and it's ego right and ego is we've talked about this before too like to protect us

but in this case it's actually hurting us instead of protecting us

so let's put ourselves out there and learn a little thing

Zachary: and and I think that's like that's like I mean how you learn the most right like you got like learn by failure kind of learn from your mistakes like Um yeah.

PJ: Um all right. So like at this point,

you know, you've you've gotten out now you're, you know, software engineer um still in the market and um but we're working together now, which is cool. So again, you know, find find people who can bet on you. Actually,

I guess I've really shared this about my own journey. So like when I was getting out, you know, I I also went to a boot camp. Um and me was medical, right? So like I couldn't do my MOS stuff anymore, right? And so I I went to a boot camp and I realized very quickly like the boot camp u the coding boot camp was really really good at teaching me how to write code

and really really good at teaching me how to pick up new frameworks and libraries but it didn't teach me how to be an engineer. Yeah,

right. Like that was the gap and I was like, hm. So, I mean,

take advantage of the programs out there. I was very lucky to be able to go to Stanford for some um some computer science classes, right? But I guess the point that I'm trying to illustrate though was that when I got out,

you know, like so I was doing this all while I was on Medboard, so I had all the time, right?

Zachary: Yeah.

PJ: Um and I would urge you to take advantage of that if you can. But like when I got out then I had a job lined up

and I got laid off literally the day before I started. I was getting right. So I was I was getting I was supposed to start on like August 31st or something like that, right? My separation date was like August 17th, I think.

Um

and I called up the recruiter and I was like, "Hey man, you know, what do I need to wear? Like I had no idea, you know, where am I supposed to meet you?" And he goes like, "Oh, they didn't tell you." And I'm like, "What?" He goes, "Yeah, no, the position has been has been cancelled." I'm like, "I'm getting out, you know, in like two weeks. I have a family. when were you going to tell me this? Um, and the to the point of again putting yourself out there,

I had fortunately there was an extension on on Chrome at one point. It might still be there where you could literally have it connect with people on LinkedIn that meet certain criteria and like that's what I did. So when I was at the boot camp, I literally just I would set that thing to connect with like a hundred software engineers and engineering managers a day,

you know, and I built up I think when I when I got out of the military, my LinkedIn profile had like 5,000 connections.

You know what I mean?

Zachary: Yeah.

PJ: Here's the beauty of connection, right?

Is that at that point when they were like, "Hey, you're you're laid off." What I did was I I put myself out there on LinkedIn. I was like, "Hey, this is who I am. These are like this is what I got." And at this point, I didn't have Stanford. Um, and I'm, you know, I'm just like, please, you know, something. And it was through the network specifically of military veterans that then went, hey, job, you know, what do you call like hiring manager, take a look at this guy. And I got three interviews and my first job off of that post just because I was willing to make that post.

Zachary: Yeah. And that's something that I would urge a lot of transitioning service members to do is LinkedIn is really important. I don't think I think it's kind of

PJ: Oh, we met.

Zachary: Yeah, it's kind of straying away from that now. It's kind of becoming more of a social media platform, I think.

Um, but connections like that's one that's one of like the biggest tips I think I would give to transitioning service members is make those connections. Um,

and that the jobs will almost come to you through those connections. It's like even if it's not a direct connection, it's a connection of a connection that'll come across that and be like, "Okay, I know this person, he's worked with this person or knows this person."

Um, why not reach out to them rather than just some random person that has no connection to me, right? Um, and for me, like jobs that I've been getting like, uh, people have been reaching out to me have been like connections through my previous work. And that's the ones that I've gotten like either the furthest in or that are still in communication with me are through my previous connections. And I think most of the time like your job is probably going to come from a connection.

PJ: Oh, I completely agree.

Zachary: Yeah.

PJ: Well, I think you're you're also you're teasing at something else here. And you talked about it earlier. I want to bring it back into the light.

Deliver value upfront.

Don't come out there and expect that something's going to be given to you.

Go out there and lead with value. go and deliver value above and beyond. Yeah. Don't expect anything in return.

Zachary: And I think I think

one of the things that I was kind of misled on when I was transitioning out was like, "Oh, you're you're a veteran. Like job's going to take you."

I I don't think that's necessarily the case anymore. I don't necessarily think

people

PJ: What do I mean by that? Job's going to take you.

Zachary: Well, like because um they tell you like, "Oh, you have all these like skills like you were in the military. you have like these soft skills or you have like people want military members because they're disciplined and things like that.

PJ: Show up on time.

Zachary: Yeah. Yeah. And I don't necessarily know if that's the case. I I don't know if it's just like a cultural shift in the job market where I I don't know if relying necessarily on you being a veteran is going to put you above somebody else. Now,

PJ: I mean, just the label.

Zachary: Yeah. Just the label as a veteran. Like you said, I think you definitely have to like put yourself out there. you have to show how you you can add value, what you're doing to better yourself and and and what you're going to bring to the table that's better and and just not relying on being a veteran. And I think like I said, I I was kind of led to believe when I was getting out like, oh, you're a veteran, like that's going to put you like you're if there's five people applying for your job, that's going to put you in the top.

Like two, it's going to be because you're a veteran and they know that you're going to show up on time, you're disciplined, like you're reliable. And that's not really the case unless they're specifically looking for like a veteran. Like obviously there's companies like Northrop Grumman and um uh

PJ: Greencastle, we had Joe on a week ago. They're all veteran.

Zachary: Yeah. And I think they look a lot of times for veterans, but if you don't have those skills necessarily, then obviously that's

PJ: right. It doesn't matter if you're a veteran.

Zachary: It doesn't matter if you're a veteran. But there are companies out there, right, that look for veterans. But I think most civilian companies like don't necessarily aren't specifically looking for veterans

PJ: or don't know how to translate your skills

Zachary: and don't like and that's another issue is like not knowing how to translate your skills, right? Like you can't say I led five Marines to do like this, this, and this on a like daily.

Yeah. It's like

no companies no company's going to read that and be like, "Okay, that's a transferable skill." It's it's learning how to transfer your skills ultimately just yeah it's

you got to transfer your skills into the civilian into the civilian market and show that that's how I add value. Um and that's an issue too. I I don't really ne like I think it's something that they hit on when I was transitioning out but not necessarily something that they could help with.

— And that goes back to your point like ChatGPT if you can list in a bullet point what you did in the military and say hey translate this for this specific field for this industry or just translate these into something that's like more civilian friendly.

PJ: Yeah. And take your entire resume ChatGPT take your past five FITREPs or whatever they're called whatever branch you're in. Dump it in ChatGPT. Take the job description that you're looking for and dump it in there and be like make this work.

Zachary: Yeah. Yeah. It's magic. It and it's it's crazy how similar FITREPs like FITREPs in the Marine Corps. Um how similar those are to like what needs to be in your resume. And then also talking points when you're in an interview, right? That was something I hated though is like writing about like trying to like toot your own horn and paper. Yeah. Yeah. We're taught not to do that. So, so it's something that I I struggled with um early on with my resume, but I I I think I've gotten better with that and that's helped a lot is like companies want to know how you're going to add value and how you're going to impact them,

PJ: right?

Zachary: And not showing any of that. They're just going to be like, I I just don't want to take the risk. Especially like you had mentioned before is like the job market is so tough right now. It's like if you're not going to immediately deliver value or impact them in a positive way, they're probably not going to take the chance on you. Um,

PJ: well, but I think that that's why the exact what I'm saying there of like delivering value up front kind of like making that the mindset mindset is so important because if if you have a track record of doing that,

you know, you're showing someone again like we've talked about is will do the job, right? Like

Yeah. And you're you're showing someone that you have a track record of delivering value, you know. And by the way, these are the same things that will keep you from getting laid off.

Zachary: Yeah.

PJ: Because you're delivering value. You're it'll be the same thing that's going to keep you um like sharp because you're you're doing what it may take to learn learn a skill like while you're outside. And is how you continue to nurture connections with people that will then want to put themselves out there for you. Yes. they can vouch for the fact that you're going to do what we say you're going to do and that you're all about delivering value on the front side. I think that in this culture today, and I don't even mean just the military, the culture today is very much so like what's in it for me. Yeah.

You know,

the interesting thing is if you play the long game, it's it works for you.

Zachary: Yeah, it'll work.

PJ: Don't play the short game. Play the long game. Yeah.

You know, it's not it's not a checkers match. It's a chess game.

You know, it's you're not a a not a sprint. It's a marathon. Yeah.

And I think that like that mindset combined with what you beautifully illustrated here of like taking the job as an a QA manager and then putting the value out there and then and then converting from there is important.

You know, like I get people that reach out to me on like LinkedIn all the time that are like,

you know, literally the college graduating kids like, "Oh my god, I really need to go to like one of the FAANG companies. Like what do I do?" Yeah.

And and I'm I'm always like, "Hey, first off, take a breath.

You know what I mean? You're 22. you know, like you have time. Enjoy the journey. I'm 40 years old. You know how long it took me to get to like Meta? Like it's it is not a slow or not a fast process.

It's a journey. And and if if instead you can find ways to enjoy the I love how Alexi says this, right? Like

enjoy the middle.

Find a way to enjoy the middle because it's not just about what you achieve. Yeah.

First off, when you get to that point of achievement, how long is that exciting to pass?

Zachary: Yeah.

PJ: Right. Like a day, maybe two days. And then it's like, well, what's next? Learn to enjoy the middle. And then now all of a sudden, the entire thing's enjoyable. You're putting in the value and you're going to get what you want in the back side anyway.

Zachary: Yeah.

Mhm.

PJ: Oh, man. All right. So, I love that you've been able to keep such a a really powerful mindset and that you've had this community that's helped you get where you, you know, you've gone and and you really do. You have a great mindset and I really admire that about you. That's

Zachary: and I will admit though it hasn't always been that way and I do I do struggle right like I think everyone struggles like keeping that mindset short then it falls back on having that good support system right like reaching out to like your connections like the other day this like personal slash like professional matter question that I was comfortable enough to like reach out to you and like ask for your opinion on it and that kind of like helped me step back from the situation and be like okay it's not like as big of a deal as like I might be taking it out to be. Um so yeah, so having that support system and then that keeps you kind of on that correct mindset, right?

PJ: Yeah. Yo yeah, I totally agree with that. Um what are there any what has helped develop that mindset in you aside from community or is it all community that's done that for you?

Zachary: Um obviously community is big but like uh once you like reach those goals like having like that like inflating your ego I guess like but then also using that to be like but you can do it right like if I hadn't gotten that first position and like then got transferred would I still be like on the same path? Probably not. But once you hit that just be like okay I hit the first milestone right so I can do it right. Um it might not have been the goal, but like like you said, like the journey is like you got to enjoy the journey of getting there. Um hitting that first milestone and being like, "Okay, well,

— it's a common sper.

Zachary: It's like I I did this right like and there's a potential that if I do good and I put in the effort, like I'll get to where my next goal." And then um just having that confidence right off of that first goal and just being seeing that you can as long as you're starting from somewhere, right? Like you can you could make it there. And then I hit my next goal and became a software engineer and and that's kind of helped me in this time where now I'm transitioning into uh another like job opportunity.

Um, it hasn't like it hasn't like destroyed my confidence or hasn't like hurt me in any way where I'm like I'm back to the point where I'm like I can't do this anymore,

PJ: right?

Zachary: Um, so like like milestones like remembering that, right? Like I hit like I I got let go and obviously that that sucks, but I went back well I started I started from not having any experience and I got picked up. Well, now I have almost four years of experience. It's like that's going to be valuable to somebody. It's like I have all of this experience now when I go into an interview, I can talk and know what I'm talking about and have the confidence because I've done it.

Um, so it just kind of like builds upon itself. Like you just have to hit that first goal. And that's why like have like your your overall goal, but then have like like um I forget where where they say it, but like the like a more obtainable goals, right? Like you want to have like steps to get to your final goal.

PJ: your milestones.

Zachary: Yeah, like your milestones. You just want to make those obtainable. Um, and that's something that I I kind of I I didn't have right of like right away. Um, and then something that I kind of wish I had like thought about that more and maybe that's something that I learned during the transition process.

PJ: But what was there like a book or a resource or a podcast or like something that you that helped offer that mindset?

Zachary: Uh, not necessarily.

PJ: Okay.

Zachary: I think maybe just like seeing veterans in the space like

transitioning and getting in like making it right like seeing that like

PJ: inspiration.

Zachary: Yeah. Like getting inspiration like you've worked with I I guarantee there's some like you've worked with somebody that if you look back they're doing something completely different like they're made it into like a crazy industry that you never would have thought like and if they can do it well like why why can't you do it?

Right. Yes. And I think a lot of the time it is just the mindset um where a lot of people struggle with not thinking that they can do it, but you can do it as long as you're you're

PJ: Yeah.

Zachary: You just don't want to set your your sights too high, right? Like if if you're you're like, I'm I'm going to own a company that makes $100 million. It's like, well, you're not going to start there.

PJ: You're not going to start there.

Zachary: You're not going to start there. And you need to understand that you're not going to start there.

PJ: Yeah. You know, I think that this is a challenging skill for some people and I've had some very interesting conversations recently about this because,

you know, I think that some people have a hard time seeing that far

or visualizing themselves doing something. And the time range at which we see can be very different among people. And I and I'll give for instance here, right? Like so so for me like I and and I don't know where this came from, but like I have I have the tendency to look really really far out. Like I want to build something that's like 20 years out. I I have a retirement goal. Like I know what I want to do in my retirement. You know what I mean? Like

and what that allows me to then do is then take that,

chop it up into a bunch of pieces and then back up and then arrange those pieces over the number of years that I'm going to be working on it. And I'm like, "This is the next thing. This is the next thing."

Yeah. And I I you know, I don't know that I was always like that. Maybe. I don't know. Anyway, I I found that personally I need to challenge myself because I expected other people to do that as well.

And I'll give you for instance, there's a a guy that I went to high school with that, you know, he he is struggling with homelessness right now.

And you know, I'm I'm trying to talk to the guy, you know, this mindset stuff. I'm trying to like, hey, how do we help you with like mindset and stuff like because because to me I see the importance of it, right? And I and I understand like I'm not trying to like

say it's everything everything

but it's like 80%. Yeah.

You know what I mean?

And so like I'm trying to give him some coaching there. And I gave him and this was this was wrong of me to do

was I was like let's dream man. Let's Hey, what what do you what what would be like no holes bar like something you accomplish in like 5 10 years. and he ghosted me, right? And I was like, "Okay, maybe it's just really hard, you know, like in my own mind, I have this own story and narrative going on like, you know, oh, well, maybe maybe this is why." And and that's wrong. And I and I I apologize

if you're watching, like I I'm I should not be thinking like that.

Zachary: Yeah.

PJ: But what was interesting was he came back like a week or two later and he was like, "Hey man, so I did get a chance to think about these goals and he's like, "And right now I can't even like my goals are like I don't want to like I want an apartment building."

Zachary: Mhm.

PJ: or an apartment that I have a roommate with and I don't want to dumpster dive anymore. And I'm like in my mind I'm like, "Wow." You know, like you're you're seeing something really really close. And upon a little more like poking and proddding, I found out that like that was like really scary almost for him to like think that far

because he can't even see beyond like that little period. and and like that was wrong of me to go in and expect that of someone. And really what we need to do is get those first wins. Yeah. In place to like build that momentum and then increase the scope of what you can see.

Zachary: Yeah.

PJ: Um and I was talking to someone this past weekend about this who is very successful. The dude makes you know like the dude does really well entrepreneur does really well for himself. Um, but he saw the intermediate and when I started talking about like big big picture, like for him it was even like that. Now, what I'm trying to say, I'm not trying to say I'm better than anyone else because that's not true at all.

We all have different abilities and different strengths. And I guess the point I'm trying to make here is that like leveraging what you're comfortable with and maybe just pushing it a little bit

can can be a really really powerful tool.

But don't think there's anything wrong with yourself for not being able to do it.

Zachary: Yeah.

PJ: And don't let me in my other state of mind think that there's anything wrong with that because there's not. You're you're doing the best that you can. You probably heard this a million times. It's cliche at this point. We're doing the best that we can with the tools that we have. There's so much truth in that,

you know?

So, like, use the stepping stones, use everything that you can as a lesson, as something to help carry you forward to the next step.

And two things. One, if you're delivering value and that's the lens that you're looking at the world in, and you're humble enough to learn,

you know, make mistakes and then be like, cool, that didn't work. Why didn't it work? What could I have done differently to make it work? How can I point the finger back at me? How can I give myself the power in this situation?

Zachary: Yeah.

PJ: Learn, shift, move on, and then everything's beautiful.

It can be the worst situation in the world, but now all of a sudden you have a learning out of it, which has helped you become a better human being, which is what we're here for.

Zachary: Yeah.

PJ: Long waited.

Zachary: No. And yeah, I I would agree with that. is like um especially like I I'm big on learning, right? And pushing myself to like always be learning. Um there's always something you can learn. Like nobody knows everything.

Um but everybody knows something.

PJ: That's right.

And like

everyone's a master in something.

Zachary: Yeah. Everyone's a master in something. Um, and it's just finding those people like finding who like if you want to learn something is finding the people that know that thing and have them teach you or like follow them so and learn how they learn. It's like most of the time when someone's a master at something they're still learning that thing. Um,

PJ: but it probably wasn't an accident.

Zachary: But it probably wasn't an accident. and um they would know the resources to look for like help you guide you and and and what I found is like a lot of times we look at people that have like a following or like or a subject matter expert in one thing, but a lot of the times if you would reach out to them like they'd be like oh they'd be like the nicest person and they're like giving you advice and like telling you like what they do or like things to look into or

or be like I I don't necessarily know the answer to that question and that also then you like that like knocks your back and like oh they they don't know like

what

they don't like this person that I think is an expert is like they don't know this thing but they're going to like help look into it and like help me learn as well as like learn themselves. It's like um it's a cool thing to it's a cool thing to see especially that that was a thing that I definitely struggled with like getting my first job and I've worked with a lot of people that had a lot of experience and then

sometimes I'd like be afraid to ask a question that I thought was dumb and then you'd ask the question and they'd be like hm I don't necessarily know the answer to that let's hop on a call and like see if we can figure this out and then seeing how they

it's kind of seeing how they solve a problem how they look up things and then you learn new ways of doing it and then you can implement that yourself. It's like always that always learning mindset and that's something that I try and keep with me.

Um and and and that's something that I really enjoy doing.

PJ: Yeah. And and it's done well for you.

It's done well for you. Um well, cool. You know, I really appreciate you taking the time to to share all of this um with our audience and and you know, some of the the wins that you've had and and I'm curious to know just kind of as a last thread to pull if there's anything that you still struggle with.

Zachary: Um, for me, I think my biggest struggle, um, is kind of like the camaraderie and like that that team. Like I I you don't have that once you get out.

And especially with me working in like a remote environment and not having like a team and even when I did like work with a team, it's not the same. And that's one of the things I struggle with is like that that brotherhood mentality and everyone being in the same struggle as you is like that's not there. And then that's kind of what's missing from that like support system. Like that support system helps you with that and having like the friends that that you can like count on, but it's not the same.

Like they're not in the struggle with you and it's not like there's no one to like bond with in that way, you know? It's like you're on your you have your struggle and you're kind of like on your own. And and I think that's the struggle that a lot of veterans um that they face. And I think that's kind of where a lot of like the issues come from. And I I don't necessarily know if there's a good system in place for veterans um

PJ: yet

Zachary: yet to to kind of uh help with that. And and I think that's definitely like with Prize um something that you guys are like well us or yeah say you guys

that we're trying to to handle is kind of get that system going for uh veterans so that they can kind of find

find that like community find that like that camaraderie and and help with solve those issues. Yeah.

PJ: Yeah man. Yeah. That's beautiful. And and I do agree I agree that that's something that can be really challenging. And I would also add that there there's a ton of groups out there,

you know, community. I mean, I can name here in the Lehigh Valley Hagam Marine Corps League, which I think was is really cool. And it's it's like we're seeing like generational differences here, right? Like but um but I think there's a lot of beauty in that, too, right? Because these guys bring some stories and some,

you know, uh insight that you just might not have learning mindset.

Um but but there's a lot of them out there. And and I would kind of urge you all to to maybe find that, you know, if if you were into say skateboarding before you went into the military. I guarantee you there's like a veteran skateboarding group. I guarantee it. You know what I mean? Like there's there's photography groups, there's ecoin groups, there's um archery, I mean like fly fishing, you name it. They all exist out there. And and I think that

to your point like here the community is very very important.

Um you're not in this alone. Um

curious to know what's your favorite book.

Zachary: Favorite book? Um, that's a good question. Uh, I'm not much of a reader, so uh, that's a tough one for me.

PJ: Is there is there any book that you ever read in your entire life that you can like, you know, this this is actually a book I really remember and stuck with me.

Zachary: Um, h like I said,

PJ: it's okay. All right. What about a favorite podcast?

Zachary: Favorite podcast? Uh, I don't know if you've heard of it. It's called Unsubscribe No. Yeah. They're they're all veterans and they talk they have some like funny topics, not necessarily like uh safer work topics, but but uh what I found is I really like their because like their podcast, they're all veterans. There's like Marine Corps veterans, there's Navy veterans um that are on there and they bring in like other veterans from like the content creator space and things like that.

PJ: Oh, cool.

Zachary: And just some of the topics they talk about are so like relatable. like when they talk about like stories from like being in the military, I'm just like it just like takes me back and it's like one of those um just like a nostalgia thing or just like their humor is just like

veteran humor. So and it that's not really out there especially when you move to the civilian side is not uh that that's really not a thing anymore. So having a podcast like that and it's just uh really relatable. Um and I I just they get my sense of humor and I get their sense of humor.

Yep. Unsubscribed. So, Unsubscribe podcast. That's probably one of my favorites uh podcast right now that I've been dedicated listener to.

PJ: I love that. Okay. And and how can people get a hold of you?

Zachary: Uh for you can reach out to me on LinkedIn uh Zachary Matthews. Um that's probably the best

the best way for me. Yeah, my email's on there. Um that's and uh my projects that I've been on and yeah, what I like to do. So

PJ: nice. Yeah, I'll I'll as usual I'll drop all that in the show notes.

— We didn't have any quotes today. Oh, quote.

— No. What's your favorite quote?

— Uh,

— oh, that's a good quote. I'm going to start adding that one.

PJ: What's your favorite quote?

Zachary: Uh, what's it from? Uh, who's it? Winston Churchill.

PJ: Which one?

Zachary: Uh, speak softly and carry a big stick.

PJ: Why? Why does that resonate with you?

Zachary: um that re because uh it goes back to the thing where it's like um you can be like a an expert at something and um I guess don't have like you you don't have to be in the the limelight, but you could be an expert at something. You could be

Yeah. You can be a resource to somebody and that's right. and and but not be like out there and spreading yourself like putting yourself like out there and being like, "Oh, I'm like this big expert." It's just like you can be at the quiet the quiet expert in the room and and that really like resonates with me.

PJ: Yeah, that's beautiful. And

by the way, as we've just said, you know, not too long ago here, everyone's a master at something and you all have something to offer when it comes to that. And I know that that was something we had a conversation of when we first had this room is like, "Oh man, I'm following all these people."

But you do. You have a beautiful story. you have a lot of a great mindset and a lot of things to offer and and and I hope all of you can can reflect on yourselves and what you may have to offer there as well.

Zachary: Thank you, sir.

PJ: Thank you.