Marine Corps to Stanford to NASA's JPL: The Transition Nobody Expected

Speaker labels and mis-heard names are corrected by hand; the words are as spoken, filler and all.

Preview clips

Ryan: I wasn't the best behaved kid growing up. Especially when I got into high school. If you were to read my bio kind of on paper, you you wouldn't think that I had the childhood that I had. The doctors told me because of that situation, I could never play contact sports and probably the military was not and all those things. Um you'll probably see through a few different instances in my story that um typically when somebody tells me I can't do something, the Marine Corps gave me an opportunity to leave the situation I was in. Um, and it gave me an opportunity to learn discipline.

PJ: You know, I think that similar to you, the mentorship piece has been really important for me. I collect mentors like Pokémon.

Ryan: My wife finds me in a closet in a position that you never want to put yourself in. She climbs down in there with me and and helps pull me out and realize like I need to get help.

Conversation

PJ: Hey, welcome to the Mastering the Military Transition Series of the Prize Podcast. My name is PJ and I'll be your host. The purpose of this podcast is to share the stories of those who have successfully transitioned out of the military so you can see the tips and tricks necessary to have a successful transition of your own. That way, you don't have to stumble across some of the same things that myself and my team at Prize had to struggle with. At Prize, we believe in a world where all enjoy the freedom to grow. That's why we're developing the Prize app. If you'd like to learn more, please check out the prize.vet link in the show notes below. Thank you.

— Yes, I appreciate.

— Yeah.

PJ: Hey friends, welcome to another episode of the Mastering Military Transition series of the Prize podcast. Today we have Ryan Loper with us. Um Ryer is pri Ry Ryer Ryan is a prior Marine. Um he was in the Marine Corps from 2007 to 2014. We actually served together which is pretty cool. So that's going to be first in this episode. We actually have someone that I've known for a really long time. Um he was in power plants over there as a mechanic for F-18s. Did an IA billet um to Afghanistan for a year. Three deployments. Yeah. So two WestPacs um one IA to Afghanistan to train um the Afghani military and police. Right.

Ryan: Afghan. Yep. Yeah.

PJ: And then uh he's got when he got out um he got his bachelor's and masters in aeronautical and astronautical engineering from Stanford. Freaking big brain over here.

Um did opto-mechanical engineering over at JPL for about four years which is pretty cool. So we have a rocket scientist here.

And then um has been working at Atlas Holdings which is private equity for the past three years and just started a new role at Carlex as a director. Yes. Yep. Yep. And um I guess last but not least, you've been at Prize for 5 years, been serving as a chief culture officer for a bit and then also the the CFO for a bit, which has been super helpful and I really appreciate that. So hey man, I I really appreciate your time. Um I really appreciate you in general.

You you've honestly bring brought so much to this company, to the culture, to everything that we have done. You've me personally like taught me a ton. Um I I I don't know if I've said this before, you're probably the smartest person I've ever met. um which is which is pretty amazing out there more.

Yeah, maybe maybe we do need to get me out there more. But no, I mean and honestly I I really look up to you. You've been someone that um has shaped my life in a lot of ways. So um so I appreciate that.

Ryan: Absolutely. And it goes both ways that I wouldn't still be here today if I didn't believe in the team and in the mission and what you built here um and the people you brought on board. So we got you here.

— Yes. Oh, it started with the crazy conversations with you all those years ago. So

— it was crazy conversations. Yeah. throw a lot of spaghetti at the wall.

— Yes.

PJ: Um, so to dive in, man, like what I would love to do is I'd love to start with like a little bit of your journey. I think I know I know a bit about your childhood. I know a bit about like, you know, your your time in the Marine Corps and then what's happened afterwards and stuff, but

absolutely. I would love to hear from you, you know, a little bit of that journey. How was it for you like getting into the military? What was your impetus? Where were you in between the ears? That sort of thing.

Ryan: Yeah, absolutely. Um, so I wasn't the best behaved kid growing up. nonsense, especially when I got into high school. Um, if you were to read my bio kind of on paper, you you wouldn't think that I had the childhood that I had. And I think we see that a lot and and veterans don't always come from the best situation.

PJ: Pick a certain type,

especially in the Marine Corps.

Ryan: Especially in the Marine Corps.

Um, but that path made me who I am today. So, I'm very grateful that I've had that opportunity to make those changes. But in high school, I I think I had a 2.3 when I graduated. Wow. So, I wasn't sure what I was going to do. I knew college wasn't an option. Um, and I was thinking about joining the military and I have a great uncle who was a Marine and uh that kind of between Korea and Vietnam era and spent some time in both. Uh, he was a recon marine back then.

Um, when he heard I was joining potentially joining the military, he called me up and he said, "Hey, if you're going to join a branch, um, at least be a man about it and join the Marines." was this joke and it and so I walked into the Marine Corps office and I had long shaggy hair and a goatee and um you know kind of had that laid-back stoner vibe. Uh and the the recruiter started laughing and he's like, "Yeah, get out of here, hippie. Like you'll never make it." And so I walked out and I got, you know, probably about 10 paces from my car and I was like, "Who the f is this guy to tell me what I can and can't do."

So I marched back in there and said, "Okay, give me the paperwork. Um let's do this."

They did that on purpose. That was a sales technique. I learned that later that that he was looking for for somebody that would walk out and come back, I guess, that that was willing to try that. So, um, the Marine Corps gave me an opportunity to leave the situation I was in. Um, and it gave me an opportunity to learn discipline. Um, and to have a mission and a purpose that that I didn't have growing up. Yeah. I didn't. And so, it really helped focus me on a few key things. Um, which is what I needed at that time in my life, especially as a young man. and and it's helped make me who I am today. So,

PJ: well, I believe that 100% and we've we've talked a lot about like the people that you've met that have helped that as well.

Um, so touch a little bit on your childhood, if you don't mind, like you don't have to go into any depth or anything, but

I want to be able to show, you know, like the full spectrum here, you know? So, like what what was growing up like for you?

Ryan: Yeah. Um, so I grew up I I was born in Pennsylvania, but we moved down the kind of back and forth between Ohio and Indiana. So, a lot of it was in southeastern Indiana close to the Ohio and Kentucky border. Um, we had by time, you know, I had a few different things that had happened when I was young. One of those like uh was one of the first diagnoses of a child with Guillain-Barré syndrome. So, uh when um when I was in middle school, I got I went paralyzed from the neck down and I was at Cincinnati Children's Hospital for 6 months.

Interesting. Yeah. I didn't I don't know if I've ever told you that, but uh yeah, I had to learn to walk and talk again. Um, and and because I I hadn't used those things, so my my throat was shredded. And that's you, if you heard me talk as a kid, I had a thick Indiana, like country accent from my stepdad. I'd kind of learned it from him and growing up around my family there. But I think some of that went away a bit as I got older.

Um, you know, relearning those things and having to do physical therapy. And I remember the first time um when I was able to move again, getting out of bed and just like just standing up out of bed was so exhausted that I don't remember if I blacked out or or I was really close to it. Interesting. It took Yeah, it took a toll.

Um

so that opportunity that that the doctors told me because of that situation, I could never play contact sports and probably the military wasn't on and all those things. um which you'll probably see through a few different instances in my story that um typically when somebody tells me I can't do something um it's a challenge to say okay well then that's obviously what I'm going to do

PJ: maybe that's why why we get along so well

Ryan: but because of that then as soon as I was cleared to you know start physical activity again and all that I'd sign up for football first time I played football um being in Indiana played basketball but uh the home life wasn't n't always the best. Um uh however, it it gave me a deep appreciation for the life that I have now. So, uh you know, married and I have three kids and um it's such a precious gift that we're given

when you have a partner that's in it with you. Yeah. Um I I've seen it a bunch of different times and if you look at different studies and like the number one decision you can make um and the best decision you can make is who you marry. I agree.

And and if you if you choose the right partner that you tackle life with like no you can't do you can do anything at that point. There's nothing you can't do. So

PJ: well we were talking about this last night, right? It's it can be a 1 plus one is less than zero or it can be a 1 plus 1 equals many. And I think that goes with like any relationship. Absolutely. You know what I mean? Um, which is why like the team that we built is is as important to me as it is.

Ryan: 100%.

PJ: Um, thank you for that. I did not know about that diagnosis. That's very interesting and uh, you know, that that actually adds a lot of respect in a lot of ways cuz I I have a friend also. I don't know if I ever told you this. He's I was in gymnastics in college. Okay.

Totally for shits and gables. Like it was like I didn't do any rowing roles and

barely. Yeah. Somersaults. Um, yeah. It was really funny. Like I had a I had two roommates in college that were male cheerleaders. Yep. And like they were both in the um they were both in gymnastics club

and I was at Penn State, right? And like they were like, "Yo, come to gymnastics club." I was like, "No." And and he was like, "I'll teach you how to do a front flip or a back flip or whatever it was." And I was like, "Okay." Um sold.

Yeah. Right. And I found that the gymnastics club is one of the hardest partying clubs. It is unbelievable. So I had a blast. U it was a great time. Um but it was funny because I would go to like a meet and I had no idea what I was doing. these people would be competing on levels like way above any of my ability and like I would be like go up to the high bar and be like you know um it was do a couple pull-ups.

It was silly maybe if I could even do that at that point. But I had a buddy who was in that in gymnastics club and um he's actually over at Apple now. Um this dude is one of the most incredible gymnasts I've ever seen. Like he would literally go from a splits and slowly push up into a handstand. Never seen anyone do like that in my life. But in college, dude literally was on a high bar, fell off, broke his neck, and was paralyzed from the neck down.

And they told me like probably never be able to walk, dance, any of that stuff again. And to your point, the dude was like, "Fuck you. I'll do what I want." And he would just focus like on his toe. It's like just move toe, move, move toe. For like days, mind his toe would start moving. And he moved it up. And not only is he now like walking and you know, all of that again. dude is teaching gymnastics and dancing.

Ryan: Oh wow.

PJ: Unbelievable.

Ryan: That's incredible.

PJ: But I think this goes to show and and please like take this to the bank. Yeah. You know, like

people don't know you and don't let them put limitations on you. It's such an important point.

Um All right. Sorry. Going back to your It's unbelievable. Um

so getting back to you you joined the military. Did you select power plant immediately? Is that how it worked?

Ryan: I didn't I I really honestly didn't know what I was doing and um I thought so my my great uncle was a recon marine so I was like well maybe and my dad was infantry in the army so I was like well I'll join our army or I mean Marine Corps infantry or um you know maybe try out for recon or something like that not really knowing what that meant. Um and then again my my great uncle continued to mentor me and he said you know the best thing you can do is go learn a trade because if something ever happens you get hurt something falls back like you'll have a skill set that you can go and then uh um have in the job market.

So he's like I highly recommend find especially in aviation go learn aviation and then if you want to go do those things later in your career go do it. Um but it'll give you something to fall back on no matter what happens. each other. A brilliant piece of advice that um I listened to him and so that's how I ended up in Powerline is is um just that one sounds cool like they had engines and yeah that give me a skill set when I got out that if I need to I could get a job in.

PJ: Okay. And when you first joined, you know, you probably carried over a lot of who you were. And how did that shift start to happen,

who you are today? And uh

Ryan: yeah, a lot of it goes back to so so there was always the Commandant's Reading List, right? And and there was all these books on there. And um I I read when I was really little and then I stopped reading as I got older. um just got into the things and I had I I hadn't spent time studying and reading and and just kind of opened up my mind. Um and I remember it was after well one my wife got me back in the reading and two when I was looking through um it was it was a quote from from General Mattis and he said something to the extent as if you have the ability to read and you choose not to you're functioning illiterate. Yeah. Um, and that struck me as as um what's the difference between myself and somebody who doesn't have the ability to read and today it's nothing

because I'm choosing not to do it. And uh

PJ: that's knowledge versus action. We've been talking about that.

Ryan: Yes. Yes. Um and and my wife being the the partner that she is once she saw that slight interest she went out and and bought I was go about to go on a deployment so she bought me a Kindle and loaded like all the Harry Potter series. It's like hey it doesn't matter what you read read something um and get started and then from there you can expand and do all that. So, um I had read the first I think three or four books when I was a kid and then stopped reading and so I read the whole series and then it was another like of those um I guess I don't know what you call them fantasy style that genre um series and read through those and then started reading things that interest me.

Um and actually I spent quite a few years mostly reading um non or on fiction until I was at Stanford and and uh a friend of mine who's still a mentor actually I'm going to go see him next weekend in Palo Alto.

Nice. Um, we were sitting outside at a cafe on campus and he he was reading some biography. I can't remember what it was. I was like, "Dude, why do you like to read these all these books about old like dead dudes, you know, like what? They're obviously not here today. They don't know how things work today. Like, what is the point of that?" And he said, uh, something I'll never forget. He said, "Ryan, uh, how much would you pay if if you and Warren Buffett could sit down and he could tell you all of his greatest lessons in life?" And I was like, "Oh, Warren Buffett, that dude's billionaire us probably tens or hundreds of thousands of dollars." And he started laughing and he looked at me.

He said, "No, dude. It's 15 bucks on Amazon. Here you go." And he ordered me The Snowball. I think is what the name of the book is, The Snowball. Um, and

he's like, Warren Buffett sat down with an author and and

boiled down what he thought were his greatest lessons in life and told his story in this book. And he's like, "It'll take you a few hours to read and you learn all He's like, "So, how um pompous of you are you to think that you can't learn lessons from somebody who's who's light years ahead of you?" And um so it's like that desire to learn and that looking at those two different reading list and realize like there's something that General Mattis is on to here. And the fact that he's studying every type of warfare, every area that he's going into, he's studying all this philosophy and these different things that set you up for success no matter what role you step into. and and that really stuck with me in the Marine Corps and carried everywhere that I've gone since then.

PJ: Yeah. And you just met General Mattis like a couple days ago, which is kind of cool.

Ryan: That was really cool. Um and yeah, it told some great stories and and uh

he told us and we probably all heard it about Einstein, you know, the if you had an hour to save the world, what would you do? Um and he said, I spend the first 55 minutes understanding the problem and breaking down the problem and then it would only take me five minutes to save the world. Mhm.

So, it's such an interesting way. Um, and it goes into like what we're doing at Prize. We you look at how much time we spent working on the product and on the company and just everything and and it got down to what is the problem we're trying to solve, right?

And we spent a lot of time pairing down that problem,

PJ: right?

Ryan: Um, and once we got there, the solution nearing and and the rest of it is it's hard work, but it's a lot easier than hardware to find the problem.

PJ: Yeah, buddy. Yeah. No, I agree with that. Um, and I think that there's a there's an important piece there, too, because we can we can focus on a problem

and see it as just a problem. And we can also focus on a problem and come from a lens of understanding for solution.

And there's a saying at Meta that that I've very much so resonate with is like, don't bring me problems, bring me solutions.

You know what I mean? Yeah. I think that that's really important and we've talked about this in in episodes past where it's like the can versus will nature of someone going out in the workforce, but I think that a big difference between a can versus will person is that the will person also has the mindset of like I'm going to solve it,

right? And I'm going to bring the solutions as opposed to someone who's like, yeah, I can solve it.

Ryan: Action versus knowledge.

PJ: Yeah. you know. Um,

so you also had a few incredible mentors

in the Marine Corps

and I think that mentorship is incredibly important for any sort of growth.

Ryan: Yes.

PJ: You know, tell me about your your mentors that you had in the Marine.

Ryan: Yeah. I mean, um, the very first one that really believed in me, gave me an opportunity, you've worked with before, Anthony Jeff.

PJ: Yeah, he's awesome. Phenomenal dude.

Ryan: Um, he checking into the unit there was um there's always that that history. It's like okay you got to do this then you got to do that and then you earn this and and you go through those things and then you get the opportunity to do some of the other stuff. Um Jeff led from a way is like let me show you what all is out there and let me teach you everything I've learned and then give you every opportunity to to open whatever door you want to open and learn.

So, um, learning from him, I quickly was able to become a plane captain and then a turn call turn instructor, high power turn instructor, just all these certifications and licenses and and aviation, especially in 225. That added a lot to the team and added a lot to my knowledge set. Um, and I was able to do it at a much younger age than if I had joined a different unit or been just a couple years prior to that. And so he really opened up um and knocked down hurdles and he was he's I mean still a great dude today and he's a servant leader and he just gets things out of your ways that

PJ: he's a transformational leader.

Ryan: Yes. And and gets things out of the way to change um the opportunities that you have in front of you. So gentlemen like him um you know working in aviation especially in the Marine Corps you get really tight. I mean you were one of the pilots that I got to work with during that time and you end up really close with the officers which um I don't know that other branches are the same. the Marine Corps officers unlisted especially in stuff I I'm pretty sure it's the same in infantry, aviation, other parts of the world is you end up really close because you work together on the same mission. You have different roles but you're working together.

PJ: Yeah. Yeah.

Ryan: And so um had some phenomenal mentors and actually the a big reason why I ended up at Stanford is um that you know big head.

PJ: Yeah.

Ryan: Yeah. So Captain at the time he was Captain Martini was he had been in Iraq with the unit. I joined the unit a few months after they had gotten back and I got introduced to him through Jeffre and um it was when I was reinlisting. So I did two enlistments. When I was reinlisting the first time he sat down and was like, "Hey, are you sure you want to do this? Um you're a pretty sharp kid. Like you got an opportunity. You could go do some stuff um outside of the Marine Corps that that would be impressive." And and he he said something that and I didn't really know what it meant, but he's like, "You have this mentality.

You remind me of a lot of guys that I knew from Stanford. Like that might be a good fit for you." And there's this program. and he showed me I can't remember what the name of the program was but eventually

uh the same people that I talked to that led that program ended up at Service to School which is later on who I contacted with so I think it was Beth um I can't remember Beth's last name but she was there running that program and ended up at Service to School later and so

after I had gotten out his message stuck with me and um I I I'd never intended to go to college you know I had I think I said earlier I had a 2.3 in in uh high school. And so when I got out, I started working as a contractor at depot level maintenance. Um thinking like, okay, Michael Bobby was right. I got a skill set now. I'll just go make a living. Um it was very cynical like the everybody that worked there was retired Navy.

PJ: Sure.

Ryan: And I mean a job that should have taken 30 minutes would take 3 days because they didn't want to be out of a job. And it was I I was telling my wife, I was like, I can't work like this long term. Like I see where the waste comes from. Yeah.

Um and so with that I started taking night classes thinking like well this will help pay the bills for now. I had no I started a local community college, no intention to transfer and uh but again it was that mentorship other mentors I met through the Marine Corps stepping out and then when I went to the community college there was a group of veterans there that all became mentors to me that were you know a a half a semester or a year ahead of you like literally guys that just punched through

maybe 15 minutes before you did and they're looking back like okay watch out for this Watch out for that.

PJ: Right.

Ryan: And I I think that's something we'll probably get to and talk about is is a lot of the lessons that we learn and a lot of the ways that we have found success on our paths come from someone else um opening that door for us or looking back and showing us the route. Um, and it it's a big part of our Prize, too, is is um

we have the ability to reach back and and I believe it was the club women I I I learned about back in the early 1900s and they had this saying, it was lift as we climb.

And so they are beautiful. And so as they were having an impact in their communities, they were trying to lift their communities up with every opportunity that they had. And so, um, it's something that's stuck with me when I learned that actually in a class at Mesa at a community college class. Um, and that lift as we climb motto just has has really resonated.

PJ: Rising tide.

Ryan: Yes.

PJ: Well, you know, so there's a couple things that are I think worth pulling out here. You know, one like mentorship is great and we should all one both seek mentorship and seek to be mentors because it's it's not just like again knowledge versus action. the theme of the day.

Um, today's letter is um, no, they uh, I think that what's important here though is it's it's sure and mentorship is important and being coachable

is important.

Ryan: Yeah.

PJ: Because if you're not willing to listen, then someone could talk to you all they want, but it's not going to mean anything.

Ryan: Yes.

PJ: You know, and even if you are willing to listen, but you're not willing to put it into action.

Yeah. Again, what what I saying, G.I. Joe, like knowledge is half half the battle. Yeah. Like it's it's not worth a whole lot. It's just like like ideas. Ideas are great, but everyone's got ideas and they're not worth much until you actually put action behind them. Yes.

And I think that that's one of the most incredible things that I've seen you do is like take these things that people have taught you and like being willing to just be humble and swallow your pride. Well, no, sure. We all have ego on some level, but like to swallow your pride and then put it into action and be like maybe this person knows something instead of not being coachable and being like, "Oh, screw this person because that sort of mentality can go hand in hand is what you were talking about of like if they challenge me, you know, then I'm just going to go and do it." That can be handinand. Yes.

Um but there's a time and a place,

right? And being able to separate those two things, which I think that being able to be introspective and reflect on ourselves lends to that.

Ryan: Yes. Right. Well, it goes to to two different things there is we you know the Marine Corps preaches a lot of leadership and and we there's as you come out you you feel like you're ingrained with this leadership and there's another part of it that's not as talked about and and and that's really ingrained in the Marine Corps as well is followership

PJ: so so knowing when to follow and how to support that person you're following.

Ryan: That's right. Um, and and so you can find, you know, walk down the street and go into a Barnes & Noble, go on to Amazon and look up leadership and you're going to find an infinite number of books and there's case studies and there's MBAs that they study leadership, but there's not a single one that talks about followership and it's such a powerful thing when you can step up and down depending on what's needed in an organization um to sometimes you got to step in that leadership role and sometimes you need to follow and support the leaders that be and so that's a piece that I think gets lost a lot. um and not as discussed as much, but it's something that's ingrained in a lot of us to know that, okay, this isn't my opportunity to lead. This is my opportunity to follow and I'm going to follow the best way I can. And and you you mentioned humility and and it's

to to me it's like how dare I not learn the lessons of those that came before me. And I think maybe it was Feynman who said uh um studying physics, it's like we're standing on the backs of giants.

PJ: That's right.

Ryan: And so

PJ: I can't wait. There's gonna be so many quotes and stuff, but it's gonna be

Ryan: We're probably gonna have to check and make sure they're right because

PJ: No, that's fine. That's what I do. There's a section in the notes that is usually quotes attempted to be quoted.

Ryan: Yeah. Perfect.

PJ: No, I think that the the other the other really interesting point here though is is that like a quote that I really love is one from um I think it's Teddy Roosevelt um where it's like you can accomplish anything as long as you don't care who gets the credit. And and the best leaders here are the ones that hire people that are smarter than them.

Ryan: Yeah.

PJ: They're the ones that bring all So you should feel dumb as a leader in the room because again, humility. How dare I bring someone on and then think I know more than you. Yeah.

You know what I mean? Like why would I hire someone that I know more than? Yeah.

Right. Um so like that's that's the power being able to build a team be like this is your superpower. Let you go do that. Prop you up. This is your thing. Go do it. Right. Um

yeah. Anyway,

Ryan: there was I'm trying to remember who it was, but a mentor of mine when we were talking about hiring.

Um he was telling me, you should hire people that terrify you. Yeah. That you're afraid are going to come and take your job the next day. Um because if you surround yourself with those people, you're constantly going to get better. And we we've discussed before. It's like you're the culmination of the five people you must surround yourself with. And so if you're surrounding yourself with people that are trying to get better, be better, um that are already better than you, it's going to force you. It's a forcing function for you to have to be better, want to do better, and and get better yourself.

PJ: That's right.

Ryan: So,

PJ: well, and going back to to Jeff here, I think that what was amazing about him too is that he didn't just like preach.

Ryan: Mhm.

PJ: Like he embodied absolutely

the things that he believed in.

Ryan: Yeah.

PJ: And that that's that's where power really is. And I think that you know this as like a dad like for me, right? Like

the kids are not going to do as we say. They're going to do as we do.

Ryan: Absolutely. Yeah. They're watching

always.

PJ: And if at any point they're acting in a way that we don't like, they're just mirrors. That's all they are. Anybody's really a mirror, but like the the loop is smaller. Yeah.

The feedback loop is way smaller. Absolutely. So if they're asking, you know, acting a way that you don't love,

that's an opportunity to be like, "What am I doing?"

Ryan: Yeah. Um well and and we going back to the mentor piece is like every I guess impressive thing that I've been able to do or add to the sheet of of things has always come via mentor like you know we discussed about um my opportunity to work with JPL um I was an opto-mechanical engineer at JPL if you would have asked me you know a year before I was an opto-mechanical engineer what an opto-mechanical engineer was I would have had no clue I didn't know that existed.

Um, and when I was still in community college, I had a mentor who who I still talk to, um, Otto Palanco. And Otto found me through a program called NCAS. So, it's it's NASA Community College Aerospace Scholars Program, and they take community college students and and you do an online course and you learn and you um, depending on how you score at the end, you get invited to go to one of the centers um, and spend uh, I think it's three days or four days doing like a a Lego rover competition.

PJ: Oh, yeah. Wait, didn't you invite me to that?

Ryan: I probably sent to you.

PJ: That was the robot. Um

Ryan: Yeah, that was a different That was at Stanford. Yeah, there's a different uh that was a class and cool. Uh that was funny. Uh what he's talking about is at Stanford um there's a robotic autonomy class. There's a couple different ones, but um there's one specifically where they they have a competition at the end of it. And I think there was more students at that robot competition and outside people than I typically saw at like Stanford football games, which is sad because

PJ: Well, hey, I mean, you know, it's it's the crowd.

— This is the environment.

— Yeah. I have a nerd stand for sure. Yeah. Right.

Ryan: But but Otto like he brought me in as a community college student. Like at this point, I hadn't been accepted to any school. Who knew if I was going to transfer? He brought me in as an intern and I got to spend the summer working at on actual projects at the Jet Propulsion Lab and um and I got to go back, you know, a second summer and then had an opportunity to go and work with that group that exactly with Otto's group and um he had the same embodiment like he lived what he was teaching and and he would work these crazy hours delivering hardware and and uh super bright dude and then he would uh in his free time go through my resume and then he'd call me and we'd talk for hours and talk me through my resume and talk ask, you know, what sorts of things are you working on?

Um, what are you growing and learning? And, um, he he's what are you reading? What are you doing here? Um, and then prepping me for what it looks like to come and be a solid engineer at JPL and and thinking through things like the design process. It's like, well, yeah, how are you going to put that bolt in? It's like, how? And going back to my time as a mechanic, like how many times did I curse engineers for put putting something um like breaking the the the torque on uh um on the bolts that held the engine in place like you needed 6 ft of extensions and this giant breaker bar where somebody usually busted a knuckle um and and so thinking like why would they put that there? Sometimes it's your only option but other times it's just an engineer doing stuff on a computer and not thinking about it has to build this.

PJ: Yeah, I know what you mean. like as as a software engineer um a a gift that I've been able to develop over time was I started software engineering I I discovered it through UX design

like I didn't start with software engine I started with UX design

and I have brought that mentality into the code that I write

— you write beautiful code well-written code it's generally

— bug less bugprone

PJ: because now it's easier to debug it's now easier to read um all that stuff makes it makes difference, you know.

Ryan: Absolutely.

PJ: Um I want to back up a bit. Um I know we're bouncing on kind of all over the place here, which is okay, but like

Ryan: that's about how my mind works.

PJ: Yeah. Well, um I feel you. So the

going back to the Marine Corps, you know, you you served two deployments, WestPac, um

225, which was squadron I was in, and then you went on IA to Afghanistan. Mhm.

What What were some of your takeaways from that time?

Ryan: Yeah. Um, a huge one that went back even to like General Mattis talking about being functionally illiterate is working in that country, you saw they'd been at war for thousands of years.

Um, and a lot of people were taken advantage of because they didn't have the ability to to read and learn what was being used to take advantage of them. But the other side of that is when you step into a village and you see these are some of the most happy people I've ever seen. How about that? Um and they have the most simple lives. And so it was this uh like coming back after that deployment. It's it's like this um dichotomy of of the joy and the peace and the happiness of of having almost nothing and the simplicity in life and realizing what's truly important.

And the other piece of if you're not learning and growing and finding ways to make sure you're not taken advantage of, you don't get stuck in this war torn area. And

so a lot of it was um like I was just in awe at like the interpreters. I had a couple interpreters that they learned English by watching like '90s sitcoms. Um

PJ: that was fun.

Ryan: It was hilarious because the the the the jokes and stuff that they would make were were very dated, but but they worked for the environment. Um, and it just it gave me a deeper respect and love for people um that I didn't know that I I that I could have had had I not spent time in an environment like that getting to see um obviously

going down range or doing any of those sorts of things has its hard times. Um and you have to deal with the conflicting emotions and then the other things that come outside of that. But trying to turn every opportunity, every lesson into something to learn from.

Um, looking back on that time is is it really instilled in me a deep love of people and a strong desire to continue to learn no matter what I did.

PJ: Yeah, that's beautiful, man. And and something that I don't think that a lot of people take on. Um, suffering is a choice.

Yeah. Um, and I know we both appreciate the stoic philosophy, so that's something we resonate on there. Okay. Um, now I'm I'm sure that, you know, there there's some pieces that affected you there also in other ways. And, you know, we don't necessarily have to touch on those, but the mentality that you just described also probably helps in overcoming some of those things that maybe happen.

Ryan: It would. Well, you would think so, but it's that going back to that uh knowledge versus knowledge and action.

And so, you know these things, but do you actually live these things? And and I think that was the hardest part for me. And and after I got out,

um it was realizing that I needed to take care of myself because it it goes back to the I think we it's probably mentioned a lot of different books, but the airplane analogy is like you can't put someone else's mask on until you put your own on.

PJ: 100%. Yes.

Ryan: And so for 10 years, I I just tried to put the mask on of those around me, not realizing that I was suffocating. And and because I I had been suffocating, I was suffocating those around me. And so, um, it took a long time to to step into the fact that I needed to work through a lot of things and and try to find a way to, um, get out of the mind or maybe not the mindset, but the mentality I had built myself into, um, from not taking care of myself in those times, in those situations. And so, um, when you have a family, like you drag them down with you. you don't take care of yourself.

Um, and I think

if I can say anything to transitioning veterans, like

get the help, take care of yourself, lean into your loved ones, uh, find mentors and and people that have stepped the path just before you and let them help you in that time of transition. Um, we see too many that get lost today because they're buried in it. Um, and they don't they can't find a way out and they feel that and they lose hope. Um, and that's why we need Prize today.

PJ: Yeah.

Ryan: Is we need to give an outlet to be able to reach back. We need to lift as we climb and pull more of our brothers and sisters out from this.

PJ: Well, it's insidious too, right? And especially, you know, again, we've talked about this in other episodes, but like the idea of like for instance, if I, you know, a non-negotiable for me most days is meditation.

If I don't do that, one day it's usually okay. two days though it starts to affect things and I won't realize it, right? And then I'll meditate the next day or something and then all of a sudden I be like, "Wow, I was being an asshole."

Ryan: Oh yeah.

PJ: You know what I mean? And

and to your point of like taking care of yourself, it's just so insidious. It's hard to recognize in the moment because we have these pathways that we built over 20, 30, 40, 50, whatever, how many years.

Ryan: Yeah.

PJ: And trying to overcome them can be really, really, really hard. And it's that constant practice that that allows us to shrink that cycle

to where you can make an effective change in the moment, right?

Ryan: Yeah.

PJ: So, so going back to, you know, getting out, you know,

where where were you

now between the ears getting out of the military cuz I know that we've talked about this too. Big head, you know, brought up, you know, Stanford.

Ryan: Yeah.

PJ: But you were like, I'm going to go do that. You had no idea what Stanford was, you know. help me understand both where where you were like time and space between the ears navigating that journey but then also bringing in some of like okay what you were struggling with at that time.

Ryan: Yeah. Yeah. Um there's a lot there. There is a and and I I I mean every veteran that's transitioned knows the the we all have slightly different paths, but we all have similar struggles sometimes. And the way that we struggle is different, but the reasons we struggle isn't always that different. Um and so getting out I there was a mistake. So the day I was supposed to reinlist, so I had actually signed a third contract and and I had intended to stay in the Marine Corps.

Um I got histed and so I was supposed to go recruiting. um which I wasn't stoked about. Uh but I didn't know what else to do. I didn't have another option. Like I said, I had a 2.3 in high school. Um and I was decent at the being a Marine. At the same time, I had my first daughter and um I told myself even before I got married is if I get to a point where being a Marine and being a husband and a father like start to conflict, then I'm not going to be as solid Marine. I'm not going to be the best Marine that I can be. And I'm also not going to be the best husband or father I can be.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And um so I had signed those papers and then had my daughter and then some stuff happened in between there where I was like, "Oh, what was I thinking?" Like I just put my life in the hands of these people that um you know, didn't really care what happened to my wife or daughter, unfortunately. Um and so the day I was supposed to reinlist, the career, not my career planner, but the career planner, I think from the MAG, came down cuz he was like, "Hey, where's your reinlistment package?" And I was like, "I don't know, dude.

I turned it in like six months ago. you know, you have to do it way in advance because it takes months to fill out all the all the paperwork. And uh he's like, "Okay, let me see if I can find it." Well, they couldn't find it. Oh. So, um I remember I walked into this hallway to another unit that had been deployed and um I called my wife and I was Brit and I was like, "Hey, uh so they lost my package, but I'm really thinking about not signing a new one.

What are your thoughts?" and and um she we've been married almost 16 years and and every day she's been on my side and she says um like I'm in your corner. Whatever you want to do, we'll figure it out. Whatever you want to do.

PJ: That's beautiful.

Ryan: And I I'm a believer. Um so so faith helps guide me in a lot of things. And you know, I've had my ups and downs like any believer, but at that time I I kind of stopped to pray like, "Okay, what do you have intended for me here, God?" Like what what where am I supposed to go with this? As I'm praying, I'm I'm feeling more and more led that no, this is like go take a bet on yourself. Um without any backup plan, without any understanding of what was happening.

And you know, I stopped and I looked down and and the person that was looking up at me was the devil cuz I happened to be standing on the red

PJ: and he Wow.

Ryan: Yeah, dude. It was powerful.

PJ: That is powerful.

Ryan: So he's staring at me and I'm like, "Okay, that's enough."

PJ: Yeah.

Ryan: So I went and said, "All right, never mind. I'm not going to relist and it ended up a whole big thing. Um but my package was gone. And so um I I quickly had to transition out um without knowing that that was what I was going to do. And so um the speed at which I I had to do things and and get prepared for for leaving the military and then try to figure out, okay, I've got a wife and a kid now. How do I support that?

And so I I was fortunate enough to have built a relationship with the depot level guys that were working um just because I had come back to aviation and um I was a sergeant running the shop and had the opportunity to go out and talk to those guys as I was getting out and it's like well are you guys hiring and you know I know how to do this stuff. I'm pretty good at it. Here's my resume. Um and ended up you know getting a job doing that.

I still had no intention to go to college. Like well I'll just do this the rest of my life. We'll stay here in San Diego and I'll work on jets.

PJ: Yeah. Yeah.

Ryan: Um, which was a great idea until I got like my first paycheck and and I started looking. I was like, hold on, I got to pay for that. I got to pay for this. Like I had no clue how financing I not just cover, but like I got to pay for benefits. I got to pay taxes. And, you know, I want to put money into a 401k because I want to be able to retire. And I realized like, oh, I can't afford to put in 401k.

Oh, our benefits might be too rich for us right now. We got to cut this down some. And I I can't not pay taxes. So, here we go. Um, so I was looking around. what am I going to do? I can't ask for a raise. I just started. Um I don't really have any other skill set to go and find a job. I realiz I had the GI Bill there. I was like, well, I could take night classes. That'll at least give me some BAH and help pay.

And uh that's how I started my college journey was was taking night classes while working during the day at this um um on depot level maintenance. And uh the my first semester I did well, got A's and was like, "Oh, college isn't as terrible as high school. This is kind of fun."

PJ: Well, you had grown.

Ryan: I had grown. Um and it was different. And I was given instead of being told uh you know here's what you have to learn. Let's cram all this in your head and then I'm going to give you test at the end. You're going to regurgitate it. Um I I had again another mentor um um professor um Marquez. The first introductory class I had for college was was trig. I'd take this trigonometry class. And he sends a video to the whole class and he says, "Hey, I just want to intro or invite you guys to learn how to do magic." And we're like, I was like, "What is this?" He's like, "Well, I mean, it's more of a superpower.

Like, let me show you." And he's walking through his neighborhood and he's like, "You see that tree? How big do you think that tree is?" He's like, "I can tell you exactly how big it is by trig." And he puts his hands up and he measures the angle and he and he shows it that he's like, "This is a superpower. I bet you didn't know you could do this." I was like, "Whoa." like this is a totally different way to look at a subject that a lot of people don't like to do especially trigonometry um

and I had to start in below like I I went on to study engineering but because of my previous um academic uh strengths the path that I had taken I I had to start in like below college reading um and writing cuz because I didn't you know eaten I I ate a lot of red crowns but I started to eat some blue ones towards the end which mix it up a little bit but it wasn't wasn't enough. Um, so, so I still had some issues there.

Uh, and then trigonometry, which typically start in calculus. So, I had to do trig and then pre-calc and then I could get to calculus. Um, but, uh, my that professor just completely changed the way I thought about learning those sorts of subjects. And it's like, hold on, these things are useful. This is fun. Um, this is just problem solving in a different way.

PJ: It is. Yeah. That's right.

Ryan: And yeah. So, so then I started taking night classes and um I had done pretty well and my wife asked me, she said, "Okay, um you know, you can't get a bachelor's degree from here. If you want to get a degree, what do you want to study and where do you want to go?" I was like, "Well," so I started doing some like what are the hardest ones to get because if I'm going to do it and somebody's going to pay for it, why not just challenge myself to the max? Um and it was like

I don't know, medicine, become a doctor. I like why I'm gonna go to school for 20 years and then um like do surgeries and stuff. And then there was engineering. And I was like actually engineering would be a blast. And I looked up the different kind of there was computer science and I was like I don't really want to do computer science. And there was astronautical engineering which um had to do with space had to do with uh there was mechanical components there was physics and computer science like all a whole bunch of different things rolled into one. I was like that actually sounds a lot of fun and I want to go to Stanford. Um because the study count said

and so uh me being naive and not understanding colleges, I didn't realize Stanford was Stanford um at the time. And when I told my wife this, she said, "Okay, that's where you want to go." I said, "Yeah." She said, "All right." So she bought us or got us a hotel near the campus. We packed up. Our daughter was 18 months old. We drove the nine hours from San Diego up to Palo Alto and we spent two days on campus. And I remember sitting through a um they do like not an orientation but a tour

and they bring you in and they talk and we're sitting in the room and everybody around me is like uh their kids are probably

freshman maybe sophomores or middle school and then I'm there with my 18-month old daughter and the guy you know talking he's he comes to me kind of on the first break and he says hey I'm I'm guessing you're not here for her talking about my 18month-old. He's like I don't think you're getting her ready for Stanford just yet. Um, so you're are you here thinking as a transfer student? I was like, "Yeah, actually I'm at community college now. That's what why we're here to visit." Um, and he said, "Well, just so you know, the transfer acceptance rate is like just under 1% right now for acceptance." I was like, "Okay." So we walked out and my wife started

PJ: saying there's a chance.

Ryan: Exactly. It was like that like So I was like, "So you're saying what's what's how does a girl like me end up with a guy?" Like and it's it's less than 1%. And I was like, "So you're saying there's a chance?"

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Um, and she's like, "So, how what what do you think here?" I've always struggled with the how does that make you feel? And I've been working on that, trying to get better because um um feelings have a lot to do with the way that we interact with the world.

PJ: We are emotional creatures

Ryan: 100%. And as much as I'm logic driven, and I could be a logic bully at times, is as um we are almost always driven by some emotion to something.

PJ: That's right.

Ryan: um or some feeling that we don't know is there. And so until you can learn to recognize it, categorize it um and then try to find out like what caused that feeling, then you don't really know. You're just kind of you're constantly shooting from the hip. You know, you're flying around and you don't really realize um why you have certain manurisms or why you uh react in a certain way because you haven't bothered to stop and learn. And so I'm working on that process. Still working on it today. I'll probably always be working on it.

PJ: Hey man, we don't have problems or things to grow towards.

Ryan: That's right.

PJ: Are we alive?

Ryan: That's right. But she said, you know, what do you what what what was your thought there? And I said, well, it's not zero. And she's like, no, it's not zero. Let's do this. And she believed in me from the beginning. And for two years, two more years after that, continue to go to class, study, work towards an engineering degree. And the the first year I applied, I got waist listed, but didn't get in. And and this comes to another mentor of mine who really helped me during this time, those two years.

Uh so I signed up for Service to School which uh helps veterans in preparing to tell our story to admissions counselors. Um and so I got paired up with a gentleman Eric Witrike who um had a degree I think he I believe he worked in finance or something like that and then after 9/11 enlisted in the army to become a Green Beret enlisted. Wow. um great guy who spent a ton of hours helping me like polish my story and and um prepare like you know how do I tell my story through the the um media that they given me the these questions they're asking.

Yeah. Um, and so with service school and Eric, we wrote back and forth like he'd say, "Okay, this gets lost here. Here's that like what do you think this story, you know, do you have another story you can tell that helps?" Uh, like I see where you're going with that, but it doesn't really illustrate the point that you're trying to make. And so back and forth, tons of hours between the two of us. Um, and the first year I got weight listed but not accepted. Um, and it was another one of those like, "Oh, how does that make you feel?" I was like, "Well, I almost got there, which means there's something there. Let me work on it more this next year."

And um it was after I didn't get it, like when I found out I wasn't going to make it off the weight list is that very ne like that moment I reached out to Eric and he's like, "Okay, so what's the plan?" I was like, "We're going to go for this next year." And he was like, "All right, I'm in." And so we worked on it for a whole another year in preparation. Then that second year I got accepted um and uh got to transfer and go through to Stanford. more part of that than one to 2% that you accepted.

PJ: You know, there's there's so many incredible points to pull out of this. Um, and I want to be careful in grabbing what I think will be useful here.

You know, one you keep mentioning mentors and what I what I don't want each of you to take away from this is the idea that, oh, Ryan was lucky because he was he had all these mentors. It's easy to fall back into that mindset

anybody can be your mentor

Ryan: 100%.

PJ: Because everyone is your master in something. We talked about this in the last episode actually. Okay.

Ryan: Everyone is your master in something.

PJ: Yeah. And really, it's a matter of being more open to believing and trying to find what that person is a master of

to allow you to be open to that. So, anybody can be your mentor. Now, here's the thing. You don't want to just accept anyone to be your mentor.

Ryan: No.

PJ: However, it's when you were in a conversation with someone, being able to look at them and be like, what what do you have to teach? What is your gift?

Yeah. you know, and then being open to that gig. That's why you have so many mentors. It's not because I mean, sure, there's there's a time and place piece of it, too.

I bet you there's time and place things happen more than you think. It's being open to it.

Ryan: Yeah.

PJ: That now allows you to say, "Okay, this person was my mentor."

Ryan: Yeah. Yeah. I mean, what success is the cornerstone of preparation and and at the right time and right the opportunity shows up there. And so, if you're not preparing for whatever success is coming your way, there's no way you can take advantage of it. And so you have to constantly be preparing yourself for what's going to happen. Um and if you sit by and wait for the mentor to come down and tell me like this is this is what you need to do. This is where you're going.

Um that that person's not just going to show up. Um and you're not even if they do, you're not going to be prepared to hear what they have to say because a good mentor is going to tell you the things you don't want to hear.

PJ: That's right.

Ryan: They're going to help you see your weaknesses and and um and strengthen your strengths and and that's not always easy.

PJ: Yeah. Actually, I don't think it's ever easy.

Ryan: No, it's never it's never easy. But nothing that's easy is typically things that are easy are not worthwhile.

PJ: Yeah.

Um but it is simple.

Ryan: Yes.

PJ: And I think people confuse those things. Easy and simple are not the same thing.

Absolutely. Um, you know, I think that similar to you, you know, the mentorship piece has been really important for me

and I I joke sometimes about how like I collect mentors like Pokemon, you know, not that I was ever in a Pokemon, but you know, it's you don't have to let it kick.

Ryan: No, I know, right? I know

PJ: I wasn't. I swear. Um, no, but the, you know, there's times where seeking one out is important. And I think there's a lot of great opportunities out there, too, for the military community, not just in like, you know, who you're might be in your unit, what leaders you may have, but there's like ACP, um, there's Post Federal, you know, there's service school, there's a lot of these great organizations that are out there to help us in this capacity.

Ryan: Yep.

PJ: But then it's also, it is also that humility piece. It's also being able to take that step back and be like, "Wow, that person said something that I didn't necessarily like to hear,

but I maybe I need to hear it."

Um, and finding that

finding that nugget in the mound of

[expletive] you know, is is so important. you know, like sometimes I'll talk to people where, you know, I'll say I'll I'll read a book about someone or, you know, like I'll I'll go to like an event or something, right? And the person there, I may not agree with a lot of the stuff they say,

but there's going to be that one or two piece of things in there that I'm like, "Wow, like that's awesome." And it's being able to like sit down and deal with maybe a lot of that stuff to find those nuggets, the diamond in the rough, if you will. Um, well, that's cool, man. I I love that. I love this story because it is really inspirational and it it goes to show that honestly even even us Marines as craaters, you know, can can sit there and accomplish some amazing things.

Ryan: Yeah, I was an enlisted dude, right?

PJ: Well, no, it doesn't mean anything, man. Um,

and yeah, I was an officer and I look up to you. It's I think that it doesn't matter. It doesn't matter, you know, like it's you can

you can learn from anyone.

Absolutely. Um, so you went to Stanford, you went to JPL. Um, so talk to me a little bit more now about like because at some point we're busy

and we're avoiding the things that we need to take care of.

When did that come to a head for you?

Ryan: Um, so I when I finished my bachelor's, I got accepted to be able to continue on my masters, but I also got a job opportunity to go to JPL at the time. Um, this isn't 2019. So, um, I thought there's got to be a way to split both of these because I have now at this point I had a wife and two kids. So, I have three dependents. Um, I can't just stay a student forever. I I have to get out and and make a living.

Um, and so, you know, I was fortunate to be able to work it out with Stanford where I could move to a different side of of Stanford and take classes remotely and then go up to campus where I need to to deliver. I think could work at JPL full-time. Um, not realizing like we're moving to a new area now. I have wife and two kids and and uh my youngest was about two and and now we're in LA. I'm working at JPL uh typically 10 to you know 12 hour days and then have Stanford grad school on top of that that I have to do.

Um and we're in a 900 ft house uh in in Glendale, California. And um it was that first semester where um I just was so heads down trying to work that I I just I hit uh I hit a wall. I was and and I almost dropped out of Stanford. I was like and I I told my wife she's like I'm done. I can't continue to do this. Thankfully, she convinced me she said take a break. Uh um Stanford's great about that. A lot of the schools are nowadays will let you they realize the value in stepping and doing something different and not just you know constantly going through.

Yeah. So I was able to take a pause and then slow down and then um COVID happened which for most people was you know for most of the world it's been a terrible event but for me it forced me to slow down and it gave me this opportunity to be home. um like we went remote and and I had we went out to visit some family in Tennessee, fell in love with it and decided to stay out there and um so for 2 years I worked remote.

You know, I'd go back and forth to deliver hardware and things like that, but I was home way more than I had ever been, which meant I had to face all of these things that I hadn't faced.

Yeah. in the you know let's see at that point it was 20 so six years since I had gotten out um and then the few years before that from some of those deployments it was you know coming up on uh uh 8 years to a decade of of pushing stuff down and then slowing down to a point where you you know you discussed meditation meditation forc you to sit with yourself for time so that things you can see the things as it come to the surface right I purposely avoided meditation so those things couldn't come to the surface and I could just try to push it down deep.

Um, and it took its toll on me um to a point uh a very very dark point where you know my wife finds me in a closet in a position that you never want to put yourself in. And um she climbs down in there with me and and helps pull me out and realize like I need to get help. Um I can't continue to try to do this on my own and I can't bury myself in work to get through it. That's right.

No amount of work or books are going to get me through it. Like I need to do the work.

Um that's a still an ongoing process. It probably will be the rest of my life.

PJ: Absolutely.

Ryan: Um

but I had to stop and go get the help. And I had to I couldn't see it myself. I had to see it through the lens of loved ones. M

um and and now that as I've gone through it and I realize like and I've taught my kids to walk on eggshells at certain times because of my uh um uh mentality at times or or because the way I carry myself just rough and quick to like blow something off and move on like okay that's not really important. Let's go. And um I've had to work through that and realize like I've been given a blessing. These three many humans that I get to train um and I was teaching them to be anxious and depressed and afraid of the world at times.

Um which I could not have gotten to where I am today from where I was if I continued to be afraid of the world if I lived in that closet. And so, um, that was the time for me where it it like shocked me, um, awake to say, "Hey, uh, this isn't just affecting you. This is affecting your loved ones."

PJ: That's right.

Ryan: Um, and I I talked about taking care of myself, but I really didn't bother to learn to take care of myself until I learned that I couldn't take care of the others until I could learn to take care of myself. And I thought I could just, you know, duct tape and Motrin. Take a knee, take some Motrin. Um, duct tape. I mean, I had to bust out the electric tape very still carry that around. Um, cuz you never know what you're going to need for it.

But um, taking the time and and the space to learn, what my manurisms, ticks were, the things that were um, setting me down that dark path and and realize that there's there's ways to get help out there. And I was uh uh very against using any sort of medicine for the longest time. I put it off and I was like, "No, that's just going to turn me into a zombie." Um or it's going to make it so I'm so codependent that if in a in a situation where I can't get a prescription, then then I'm going to hurt myself.

Um, I finally had some, again, good mentors and a and a great doctor who talked me through all of the options, showed me all the the, you know, impact and and um, like was really gentle with me and gave me the opportunity to to to get some of the help that I needed. And um it wasn't until after that when when my wife noticed that oh that didn't really like you did spiral after that. This is huge like you're making a step in the wrong direction and that's the the little wins.

Um I mean it's always there lingering but uh but there is help. There's opportunities to get help and and don't be close-minded to to those that are trying to help you that are giving you options and opportunities.

PJ: Yeah. Well, help help me understand a little bit of the path like what did you do in order to actually work through it?

Ryan: Yeah. Uh so then the the first thing I started with was CBT. Um because again I didn't want to touch uh any sort of medicine and so the cognitive behavioral training and and that's recognizing when you're on these these spirals like uh how do you end up in the closet at that point? Um it it doesn't just go from hey I'm out I'm doing something and now I'm in the closet. it it's a it's a triggering event or something and then it's it's a whole bunch of other stuff and before you know it you're you're far down the spiral.

PJ: Yeah.

Ryan: Um and it's a lot harder to get up it if you wait till you get to the bottom to to recognize you're in it. And so it was trying to learn to recognize when um those things are happening. And most of the time it starts for me it's physiological like the sweating, the panting, the the the heart rate increase like essentially the the oncoming of of what would be a panic attack I guess. Um I didn't realize that at the time that that's what it was cuz I thought you know I had pictured a panic attack is like you're screaming in the corner or something.

Um didn't realize it was just the tunnel vision and the uh so recognizing that hey this is my body's response telling me that something is uh u in my mind not right. My fight orflight system had been hijacked and every thread whether it was real or not was uh became a fight orflight moment.

That's right. Yeah. And so my body was prepared and and a couple of things that really helped me understand that because I'm very cerebral um as the body keeps a score from uh uh Bessel van der I think that's is his name um really helped me understand like the way that we traumatic experiences are carried in our body and how they come out as different physical ailments um and how to recognize them. So, so that was really eye opening. And then there was another book and I can't remember the author right now was called I Don't Want to Talk About It.

And it was specific to men's men's depression and the legacy of that that came from the

the wrong understanding of stoicism.

So that Yes.

that stoic man of of oh I'm not emotional and things don't hurt me.

Yeah. versus true stoicism and realizing that um you have to be prepared for what's coming and you can't be prepared if you don't understand it and you're not learning. Yeah. Um and so

yeah, there's so much that had happened during that time and and so I started with CBT and that was the recognition piece of it. Um but even that wasn't enough sometimes. Um and so then it was meds and um still continued down that path working and um not sure what the next step is but

PJ: what's been the most impactful thing for you?

Ryan: Um I think it was being open to the meds after all those years

PJ: becoming limiting beliefs.

Ryan: Exactly. Because there's sometimes where where you like my physiological response have been so hijacked that no amount of training could could help me just switch off of that track

PJ: to find neural pathways at that point.

Ryan: Yes.

Yeah. And so this has given me the opportunity to recognize that and to be able to to see the struggles from a different level um and see them not 2 days after they happened but as there happened shortening the loop.

PJ: Yeah, I totally get it.

Ryan: Yeah. So I think that's the big part at least most recently that's helped because I I hadn't

I was just closed off to that.

PJ: Yeah.

Ryan: You know, afraid that I've got a a wild brain and it's all over the place sometimes, but it's helped me get to where I am. Mh.

And u

I was afraid I was going to numb it and turn certain things off in it. And and uh it's not the case. What it does is it it shuts off some of the things that your brain doesn't need to be focused on. So you can be focused on the things that matter.

PJ: So have you have you um explored like psychedelics at all?

Ryan: I have not. No. No. No.

PJ: So some of the things that

Ryan: I'm not opposed to it though. So I I know that a lot of folks have gotten help and um it's unfortunate to see that some of that funding and that research hasn't it's been shut off.

Yeah. Um because there I believe there is help out there for some folks especially

ones with deep traumatic experiences where this can help them come to terms with it.

PJ: Well, I think I think there's a misunderstanding here, right? Like if you look at because people when don't like any drugs like I know alcohol, right? We all know alcohol in the military, right? But what does alcohol do? It's an avoidant,

right? It it's it's allowing me to just completely forget about and not face the things that I need to face, right?

Marijuana like it's it can be again used effectively, but

it's it's still an avoidant. Yeah. Right. It still allows you to kind of bury and not have to face truly the things that you need to.

The thing about psychedelics though is you can't do that with a psychedelic. The psychedelic makes you face it.

Uh, you know,

and it does another thing here too, right? Especially motor doses. So, you're like micro doing stuff like that is it builds in the space. It's a dissociative, right? M and this is I think what you're talking about is like being and tell me if I'm wrong but like it gives you this chance now to like observe how you're reacting

and being like wait a minute is that how I want to react is that the story that I want to be telling myself right now and you can actually sit in that space for a second and then decide. Yeah,

it's that dissociative that allows you to do that. And I think that that like personally speaking was really powerful for me in being able to take that pause for a second. And what I found too because unlike other substances, right,

you can especially if it's avoidant, take it more and more and more and more and more because you want to keep avoiding.

Yeah. I found personally that through something like micro doing and psychedelics, it actually made me take it less and less and less and less and less because the effect that I was trying to get out of it that was, you know, like trying to actually work through something, I didn't need it as much.

Ryan: Yeah.

PJ: And it it it just kind of became that self-weening thing that all of a sudden I was like, well, cool. To your point, the the cycle is now short enough to where I can recognize it without that

and be able to make the decision that I want to make. far from perfect, but now I think is more consistent, you know, over the years that I've worked through these sorts of things that have been able to allow me to sit there and take that breath and be like, "Okay, I'm being an [expletive] How can I shift this so that I don't have the effect that I that I don't want

in this situation?"

Ryan: Yeah.

PJ: Um, and I think that a lot of the medicines, as you've just talked about, can offer similar benefits here in helping to build that space.

Ryan: Yeah.

PJ: Would you agree with that?

Ryan: Yes. Yeah. I think that the difference there is is sometimes the medicines are used to turn off physiological responses versus the experience you're talking about is um instead of shutting off what's happening, you're seeing it now from a different

and you're able to you know a lot of and I believe it's in the body keep scores he talks about is a lot of traumatic experiences split us. So at that moment, you have this mentality from whatever age you were. So you went through a traumatic experience at six. Now you have the six-year-old, everything they've learned up to that point and your six-year-old is how you respond to the world today for a lot of things.

And so the psychedelics and and and the CBT and the different things is is when you can face that and you can tell your six-year-old self or your 20-year-old self that the experience you went through um was traumatic. But it doesn't have to define who you are. And you can reconnect those pieces and you can become a whole individual again.

You don't end up with these, you know, three different, you know, childlike minds running every time that something comes up that's either difficult

PJ: Yeah.

Ryan: or uh scary or um makes you anxious is is now you have a whole being with all of the lessons you've learned to be able to look at and see it. And and that's a piece I haven't gotten to yet and I've read about and it's that knowledge versus down to the heart thing. Um, and that I think is where the difference between what you're talking about is it's it it's helping you reach and become a holistic person. And I think with the meds, you have to also do the work with a therapist. That's right.

Somebody who helps you work through those experiences and combines those and then you can reconnect yourself. Um, so yeah, I think that that's the piece is what whatever avenue it is, like make sure you have someone there to help you connect with yourself through all of that and bring the whole piece of you together.

PJ: Well, and if I may, I actually think you're touching a little bit on ego,

right? Like what we've again talked about this in the show, people may disagree with me and that's fine. The way I see it is like ego, what is ego? Like ego is there to protect you.

That's what it's there for.

Ryan: Yeah. Selfpreservation

PJ: and self-preservation. And especially when we've had these traumatic times in our life, right? We have we think we need protection. Yeah.

When sometimes we don't. And that and and this leads in some ways to anxiety, especially social anxiety. I need protection from what they may think out there. And your six-year-old self at that point is saying, "Hey man, you need protection against X." Yep. And something I've said here before, you know, there's this whole concept of ego death.

I personally don't agree with ego death

because if you're trying to kill something that's trying to protect you, it's going to want to protect itself more.

Ryan: Yeah.

PJ: Whereas if instead, as you're illustrating here, you can actually love it

and tell it that it's okay. Thank you for trying to protect me. Thank you for trying to keep me safe. You're safe. you're okay. I love you. Thank you.

Ryan: Yeah.

PJ: It has the ability now to melt away and allow you to bring more of yourself out. And I think that recognizing these physiological things that tend to happen

can be now triggers or cues, right, to point to cue you into like, hey, maybe that scared six-year-old self is coming out to protect me and I don't need that. I don't need to be protected right here. I'm not actually in any danger right now. And it's the space there then allows you to take advantage of this. Hey man, I love you. If you can sit over there and see that I'm safe, all is going to be okay.

Ryan: Yeah,

that's hard.

— Yeah,

— that's really hard.

Ryan: It's being I mean having being a parent being a parent and anytime you see your child suffering

being able to pick them up and remind them like hey you're safe.

Yeah. Um, it's doing that with yourself, that disconnected version of yourself.

PJ: Yeah, buddy.

Ryan: Which is a lot harder, I think, for most of us to do is to to look at oursel like that hurt child of ours.

Um,

and it's changing that framework. And I think that's where a lot of these things come in is is being able to change the way you see yourself and what happened to you and then grow from there.

PJ: That's that's beautiful, man. Thank you. Thank you for sharing that story there. I know it's not always easy to do.

Yeah. And and you know, we've also mentioned this in the show before, but like don't hold it in.

Ryan: Yeah.

PJ: You know, share these stories. It it allows you to become more in tune with yourself. And by the way, we're all serviceoriented people. It's in the name service members. You know, when you share these stories with people, you're also helping them.

Because a lot of times we'll sit there and we'll think no one can relate.

Yeah. But the fact of the matter is there's always someone out there that can relate.

Ryan: Yeah.

PJ: And and being able to find that community instead of burying yourself or hiding in a closet or in, you know, like in your house, you know, using things to avoid.

Ryan: Yes.

PJ: It it'll be okay for the moment, but what you're actually doing is making it worse. Because if you are struggling from social anxiety, if you are struggling from these things that are keeping you locked away, it'll become harder because you're practicing. It'll become harder to then go out into the world and face it someday.

Ryan: Yeah.

PJ: And it just builds on itself. You're practicing staying behind. and and I offer you to to come out and and make that that choice to share yourself of be world and help someone else in the process.

Ryan: Um well, it requires something that's terrifying to most of us, especially any service member um that prepared to go into combat or whatever situation it is, and it's vulnerability.

PJ: Yeah, buddy.

Ryan: Um and you can't be an effective leader if you can't be vulnerable at times.

PJ: Sure.

Ryan: Um which means you can't lead yourself. if you can't lead your family, you can't lead whatever situation you're in if you can't be vulnerable at times. Um, and so it's an opportunity for us to share some of the difficulties and be vulnerable with each other to open up the door for others that don't know that the these are options for them.

PJ: That's right.

Ryan: And so, um, it's one of the scariest, hardest things to do. I think it's like I I put another rifle hand down range before I have to open up and talk about my feelings. like I'm more comfortable in that environment than I am to to sit down and and necessarily have an an open dialogue and conversation. But that's where the growth happens.

That's where the

stepping into the that uncomfortable situation.

PJ: And to your point, that's where the real leadership happens.

Ryan: Yes.

PJ: And you'll get people on board with you to go down range to do what we need to do if we actually can open up about those things because they're likely dealing with the same things.

Ryan: Yes.

PJ: Um all right, we covered a whole lot of ground which is really good and I really appreciate it.

What's your favorite book?

Ryan: That's tricky.

PJ: Yeah. So, uh, give us a few if you need to.

Ryan: Yeah. I mean, there's a few that I constantly go back to. Um, and actually there's more that get added to that list, but, um, I love reading Meditations.

PJ: Yeah.

Ryan: From Marcus Aurelius. It's, you know, here's a dude a few, you know, 2,000 years ago that's struggling with some of the same stuff we are of like, hey, I want to get out of this nice comfortable warm bed and go out and face the things that I have to face today. But he's got reminders in there to say, "Were you made to lay in bed um and be comfortable or were you meant to go out and accomplish things?" And so there's a lot of great lessons throughout Meditations and and every time I read it, I find something different.

So that one's fun. Um I love reading the Bible. It's the same thing. There's so many different uh lessons and and stories in there and things to help um grow your faith or grow uh as an individual. Um what else? I'm constantly cycling different between fiction and non-fiction. Um, if you want to read good fiction, you know, any sort of sci-fi books, um, I I enjoy those. Like I said, I read the Harry Potter series, so that helped get me started. Um, some of the most recent things, oh, it's so hard because, you know, you and I both have the same problem where

PJ: reading so many books.

Ryan: Yeah, exactly. We have piles of books or or we're constantly reading or listening to something. Um, you know, I love what Ryan Holiday's done in terms of of writing out, you know, he just released Wisdom Takes Work. Um, so writing about this the different philosophies and showing that stoicism stoicism isn't about being shut off to the world, but um being a calm presence in the world like the chaos and so so I love that path. Um, I mean, even to to me when I look at Jesus's lessons, like he he was a bit of a stoic like stepped into these chaotic situations, had a calm presence when people were angry or scared and and he could be that loving, vulnerable presence in that moment, which um to me is a beautiful example of how we can show up into the world. Um,

dang, I wish I would have thought more.

PJ: No worries, man.

I get it. Um, we can always drop more on the show notes later anyway.

Ryan: Yeah. Yep. Yep. Yeah. I have a massive list of books that I'm constantly cycling through. So,

PJ: I know you do.

— We should probably do like a uh a Prize book review. Yeah.

— Yeah. Actually, you ever you ever follow like Tom Bill?

— Yes. Yep.

— Have you seen his book list?

— Yep.

— That that to me was one of the first things that got me kind of I shouldn't say the first things, but it was one of the things that set me on a path of like, okay, this is a structured path of what I can follow and build my knowledge.

PJ: Um, I'll drop a link to that. What um what about your favorite podcast?

Ryan: Um I I don't spend a lot of time listening to podcast. So yeah, I I travel a lot and so I'm typically listening to audio books rather than and music. You know, my my brother's a musician, my dad was a musician, so I listen to a lot of music, but but a lot of audio books too while I'm traveling. Um I found a list somewhere online. It's like a hundred books that every man must read before he dies. And it's essentially all the books that formed and and help explain Western philosophy essentially.

Oh, cool. So, uh, some of those, a lot of those are stories. And so, for me, I I love stories and and books that are written like stories because we're built on oral traditions. That's right. We've been had stories passed down. Even the Marine Corps, like we have so many stories in the Marine Corps. Um, and half a boot camp, you stand outside waiting in in the chow line and you're you're yelling stories like, you know, um, first female Marine, the oldest uh, Marine uh, to serve, longest serving Marine, first common Marine Corps, like all these things you're constantly bury like like ingraining in your head by telling their stories out loud right there.

Um, and then we tell

our own stories. Um and and they evolve over time like you like something happens and you tell the story right then and then as you get distance from it you there's other lessons you pick up and as you learn other things in life so you tell stories. So I love um these a lot of classical stories that are are written like Dostoevsky there's so much of the like dark human psyche in Dostoevsky um that is like if you're not thinking about this you like uh crime punishment uh uh is it Raskolnikov or I can't remember the guy's the main character's name but um you know he commits this terrible act and then he he gets lost in the madness of it and it's one of those things that if he had had someone to reach out to or if he had had someone to communicate a relationship with someone he never could have gone down that path because he would have been able to talk about the things that he was experiencing going through and so that there's like you know the Russians write it a bit differently um but it's so interesting to read the the depth of humanity and something like uh um Dostoevsky and then you turn around you read something uh like A Tale of Two Cities and you see this parallelism of of the French Revolution and then you know the the British high society and you see someone who comes from one and is in the other and uh essentially is put on the chopping block and family fighting to get them off that and then end up wrapped up in that situation.

So, um, reading those stories tells you so much history of those time periods, um, and shows you like going all the way back to Meditations, like for as much as we think we've learned and as smart as we think we are today because

PJ: how about that?

Ryan: Because we can go take get penicellin now when we're sick,

we still are making the same mistakes.

PJ: Yeah.

Ryan: We're still struggling with the same things thousands of years later. Um, I don't know if that'll ever change. like that. That's probably what humanity is,

— is being human,

— right? That's right. And we are all human. Yes.

PJ: And I think there's a lot of wisdom in just being able to embrace that.

Ryan: Yes.

PJ: Um Okay. This is awesome. Thank you so much. Um how can people get a hold of you?

Ryan: Um I'm on LinkedIn. You can find me. I don't really have other social media, so you can find me on LinkedIn. Um you can find me at one on the Prize website. Um as we go forward, they'll have my my contact info there. Um, and then yeah, if you see me on on LinkedIn or on Prize or on anything, reach out. Like, don't hesitate. Shoot me an email, shoot me a message. Uh, happy to respond, especially if you need help. Like, if I can help mentor you or I can help find you the right mentor.

Um, or if you're just in that struggle, um, reach out. Like, don't wait. um myself, others on the Prize team, I'm sure, and and then more friends and family, others that we have around like like we're here for you.

PJ: Yeah. And and I think that's a very important point is is you're not alone.

Ryan: Yes.

PJ: It's it's a very important point. You don't have to do this alone. Thanks so much, Mandy. I appreciate you.

As usual, please like and subscribe. It really helps us out. Um especially as we grow and and we try to get this out to everyone. If you have any feedback, you know, please let us know. It's so huge. It allows us to make this thing better. I know we've had some issues in the past with some some podcast. Hopefully, you think it's getting better. But if you have people that you want to bring on the show, if you have questions that you think we should ask, open to all of those. Please drop it in the comments below.

Ryan: And if you want to sneak Dan on so he can tell his story event so we need to get Dan out there. Uh cuz he's got a phenomenal story and and um he's he's giving us a voice to tell our stories, but he's got an incredible story himself um in the things that he's grown through. Um he's been a great mentor of mine. So, um, it makes me so excited to see what we're doing here at Prize, to be part of this team, um, and to just see the growth and change that's happened with each member, um, and what it's about.

I can't wait to for the world to get to see and hear more of your story.

PJ: Well, thank you.

Ryan: And so, please invite him, give him an opportunity to tell it because it's phenomenal. Um, and thank you.

PJ: Appreciate you, brother. Absolutely.