What Toughness Actually Means After the Military (Not What You Think)

Speaker labels and mis-heard names are corrected by hand; the words are as spoken, filler and all.

Preview clips

Chris: My identity uh it's really come down to service. I've really found that I I can continue my identity to enjoy to serve through other platforms. I don't have to so much worry about how many people I can reach more of the individual relationships.

PJ: 10% 10%. So what does that leave us in the middle? 80%. Right? Now that 80% is what we have influence over, right? Not direct control, not no control, but it's what we can influence. Focus is starting on what we can control.

I don't think there's anything selfish about that because your impact does wind up being bigger

Chris: for a solution. We want a solution and really we're looking for peace. Toughness for me right now looks uh a lot different. I would say toughness comes in more of patience and forgiving. M

— is my environment. It made me that I wasn't wearing a uniform every day that it took my mentality out of it.

Conversation

PJ: Hey fam, welcome to season two of the Mastering the Military Transition Series of the Prize Podcast. We're doing something we've never done before um in having someone back that uh you may recognize here on episode number one. Completely different setup obviously as uh as was before here. First off, we weren't sitting next to each other so you can see this. Uh wow. Um, quite a big difference. But, uh, but also obviously we're not shooting on a potato phone. So, we have that going for us. Something else I want to do now for season 2 that we didn't do for season 1, we got a lot of feedback, which was awesome.

And if you have more feedback, please, please, please send it our way. We want to make changes. We want to make this valuable for you. But a big piece of this was, you know, not just stories. We want to be able to actually make this valuable for all of you. So, I went back and watched our episode, which by the way was the most watched episode of last season. So, the first one was the most watched. It was kind of cool. And uh it's not hard to see why, you know, like there was there was a ton of really really good content, you know, both in just like it was funny, it was engaging, but also you had a lot of actionable stuff and it wasn't so much of us just going down rabbit holes.

It was actually pretty well formatted. So, for the first one, I guess we did pretty good. So, we're going to go ahead and start off season two the same way. And I want to pull out a couple things that that we heard from last one. So, so one, I needed my job to define me instead of me defining my job. I didn't stop being tough. I just had to redefine what toughness was.

— Yeah.

PJ: I wasn't worried about happiness. I was worried about providing. That's a good one. And I think a lot of us probably resonate with that one. I hated picking out my clothes every day. That was a nightmare.

Chris: Still do. Still do.

PJ: So do I.

Um, and being resourceful is is forever. Being an expert is temporary. That one's worth thinking about and and I really like that. So, we're going to dive into today and and our big, you know, focus for this this episode in particular is I want to focus in on identity and purpose. and you touched a lot on this and um I think that there's a lot of value in that it's often overlooked as we transition out, right? Like we want so much to find a job. We want so much to just, you know, find that security which is valuable and you brought up a lot of means to do that in the last episode.

Uh I want to dive in deeper, right? So, um, you know, here, let's let's make sure that we're actually focused on this. So, let's let's dive in. You know, you let's the first one we said here, I needed my job to define me. And I wanted I want to know from you, especially as you've gone through this process, and you know, as we've said, that

— transition is not a one-time thing,

PJ: right? you know, what does identity mean to you now as you've made this this transition and uh and are continuing through it now?

Chris: So, my identity has grown a lot. Um, and uh, I've really had a good time and as cliche as it sounds, I found my tribe

and the base of it has been actually youth coaching and taking that youth coaching and expanding it to everything I've done, you know, on the civilian side and military side

and uh, that that kind of happened by accident,

you know. Uh, again,

PJ: so when you say youth coaching, you mean lacrosse?

Chris: Yeah, lacrosse. I I coach lacrosse, basketball, and football. Mhm.

So there isn't a season I'm off. And uh from from the identity finding I think you know again uh when we're in the military that we're we're youthful in terms of our bodies and our minds. Um we're very easy to mold but we are the best team sport on the planet.

PJ: That's right.

Chris: We are. And uh once we leave that we lose that team mentality. And finding that team doesn't have to be you know on a combat front or on a cyber front. It could be done as easy as a front as coaching 10 and 11 year olds to throw football around.

PJ: Sure.

Chris: Um and once you simplify that, your identity really comes through on on your impact on them. You know, there's a lot of kids that I met that, you know, watching them grow up and and and a me knife handing some of these kids. Um it's it's it's really helped me define my identity because I take that same mentality to work.

PJ: So, what is the identity?

Chris: ah my identity uh it's really come down to service. I've really found that I I can continue my identity to enjoy to serve through other platforms and it doesn't have to be just in you know the beautiful brown uniform. It could be in other forms that give me the return.

Um I I've I my identity has you know uh in in layman's terms become a little more selfish and I'm okay with that. I'm I'm

selfish though. Um, I don't have to so much worry about

how many people I can reach. More of the individual relationships. I don't have to cast out that big net. I can keep it smaller and watch that small net cast on its own. So, it's almost reverse to the military where, you know, the military's trying to keep this big cast organized and move it. I don't have to think so big. I can just go well if I just impact really impact my smaller net that smaller net will will ripple effect will will ripple versus the military you really don't get to see that ripple amongst you know further than you know being an NCO you see that on a smaller scale

PJ: so is that selfish then or is it just focus

Chris: it feels a little bit selfish sometimes sometimes it does because you know um I don't know it's hard to put into words why it feels a little selfish I'm just so used to you know when when putting in the extra hours and you know when you're in uniform you're thinking about the bigger impact. You know it's not me. The impact is you know national security getting getting deadlines done. There's

that kind of humbles your your your big picture. But then when you're you know out on the field or you know at work uh you know that impact isn't as as big in my in my field. You know there are guys out there that transition to be in charge of even more important things. But for for the most of us who um you know are out there just just trying to make it uh it feels just a little selfish. Just worried about you know not being able to to to cast that that big net for people.

PJ: It's interesting. Um if you don't mind I was talking to my son about this recently because I think that this is something that I took a long time to realize and I think a lot of people do

and actually we were just talking about external versus internal locus of control.

You know what a bell curve looks like right? How much of life would you say we have direct control over? Like direct control? I make an input, the output is effective.

Chris: I'm stubborn, so I'm going to say it's bigger on me. You know, I'm I'm a I'm I'm a get through the wall type of guy. So, to answer honestly, um I'm going to put the the majority on me. I'm an analytics guy, too, and know that, you know, there there's also a real can't control. I just don't like thinking about it.

PJ: Well, let's think about it a bit more objectively.

It's about 10%. It's going to be that that little leg on the outside, 10%. How much would you say you have zero control over? The weather, you know, the other person driving down the road.

Chris: As a defensive guy, I'm going to say closer to 50.

PJ: I'd say it's probably 10%.

— 10%.

PJ: Probably that other leg.

No control, like zero control like again the the other the weather, that sort of thing, right? It's about 10%.

Chris: Yeah. You got to understand though, I train like the Eagles are going to call me tomorrow.

So, it's hard. And they are actually it's hard. You know, I I I'm in my basement and I'm fully convinced that if if Nakobe Dean goes down, I'm getting the

PJ: Well, play with me here. Play with me here. So, 10% 10%. So, what does that leave us in the middle? 80%. Right now, that 80% is what we have influence over, right? Not direct control, not no control, but it's what we can influence. And what I think that a lot of us, especially people that are more externally focused, they try to control the things they have no control over and the things they can influence, but they neglect the things they have the direct control over. And the interesting thing is as we put that focus on the things we have direct control, if we master because our jobs really are to master what we have direct control over, right?

Once we master that, we can then really start to master the things we have influence over, right? Right. And I think that this is where you're you're getting into because you do have really good control over what you can control. So those things that like running through the wall, the things you can influence, right? You're able to now play in that realm because you have that control.

I bring this up because you had talked about being able, you know, like being selfish or bit maybe more focused, right?

But that focus is starting on what we can control. I don't think there's anything selfish about that because your impact does wind up being bigger.

Chris: Yeah.

PJ: So, let me thank you for letting me go down that rabbit hole. But I think that that's really important because we do I think a lot of people have the tendency to focus on the things that are out of our control or the things that are just within our influence without putting direct focus on what we can control. And what does that buy us?

Chris: Excuses,

PJ: right? Because now it's out of my control.

— No,

PJ: I couldn't do anything about it. I I think that that's actually a really really interesting thing to to put focus on. So I love actually that you are focusing on what you can control and smaller because it bleeds out into everything else.

Chris: Yeah. And I think part of why I focus more on that is, you know, no matter how much money we make or whatever happens, we can't control time.

PJ: That's right.

Chris: And I've really realized how important time is. You know, my my I have a, you know, a 12-year-old, you know, coming in two weeks. you know that I can still remember, you know, holding and now I have a kid who's looking at me in the eye and I I remember that time and how fast it's come. So, uh, not putting focus on the uncontrollables has given me time back and peace back. I've really I've really really want to dedicate a lot of my time to finding more peace. Um, not not solutions, but peace.

PJ: What does that mean to you?

Chris: Um, solutions. Uh, I've I've I've come to find that I really enjoy the journey of things. Um, the ending, you know, that at the end of we had a great football season. I winning it didn't matter. I was more I was more I received more peace seeing all these kids grow up and me grow up as a leader.

PJ: Yeah.

Chris: And uh peace peace doesn't end. Peace has to be ongoing. And I bring that back to transitioning is that I think we're looking for a solution. want a solution and really we're looking for peace.

PJ: Yeah.

Chris: Um because this the the the the solution is temporary sometimes because the solution that you think you wanted may not be even one you really wanted cuz I thought the solution when I was transitioning was just getting a job and making the money,

PJ: right?

Chris: And that wasn't it at all. And then once I started to realize that if I find peace, you know, if I find a if I work at a spot that understands that if you put work into me, I'll put double back into you. That gives me peace and I'm being invested into just like in the military. You know, the military is very cheap. We don't waste money. Um and u we get we again most of your NCOs are doing nine 10 jobs. So they're spread thin and we become extremely resourceful. we become, you know, extremely overwhelmed. And once we once you work somewhere that invests in you to find your peace,

your the return on veterans are amazing.

PJ: You know, I I'm curious actually when you say peace, I I wonder if you actually mean peace in the sense of like what most people might think of as peace.

Chris: Yeah.

PJ: I I don't know that you

I don't my my my understanding of peace, I think, may be a little different. So, so help me understand that. Let's dissect that a little bit. What do you mean by

Chris: So, for my piece is uh almost an agreed lifetime commitment that I have to continue to do this one thing, which is

PJ: is it acceptance?

Chris: Yeah, I would put it more in acceptance. You know, uh you know, I I I I joke with my wife, if we don't if we don't butt heads every once in a while, do we really have peace? Are we just ignoring each other? Um you know, even at work, don't be don't be scared of the flare-ups. just again have that acceptance or that peace that it's always going to be there. I know that I am never going to stop being a veteran. So, I had to come to peace with that.

I know that I'm always going to have that in me or, you know, over me. I'm always going to be I'm always going to have that marketed to me because, you know, that's

in order to reach out to people, I have to put that out there. So, I have to be at peace that I'm always going to have that label with me.

And that that comes with, you know, stereotypes. comes with, you know, stigmas and I I've come to peace with that versus trying to fight it or or put this direct bandaid on it.

PJ: I I love this actually and and it's funny because this is actually a nice segue to the next piece here, redefining toughness, right? Like

Chris: Yeah. Yeah.

PJ: I I you know, I was listening to Alex Hormozi the other day. I I love his stuff, but you know, one of the things he was talking about was we all suffer. Suffering is a part of life. It is a tax that we pay just for being human, right? Just be being alive, right? And being able to choose your suffering is important, right? Um David Goggins as well here, right? He he's all about like pick one thing to suffer every single day. But I think that that is

— peace.

PJ: Peace. It's accepting the chaos, right?

Chris: It's a piece. It's a piece of, you know, when I think about my most chaotic times was applying for jobs

because I was spraying and praying.

PJ: Yeah.

Chris: I was applying I was, again, I wasn't I wasn't in peace mode. I was in chaos mode

and I was applying for every job that I felt like I could do.

I wasn't using the correct verbiage. I wasn't going through the right platforms on my resume. I I was just shooting at whatever and hoping something landed. And that net got really big. And with a really big net comes really big letdowns

because a thousand misses burns.

10 misses doesn't burn as much as a thousand. And when I tell you I I know I had more than a thousand applications. I was probably putting in 300 a week.

PJ: So what what's the the learning and maybe the guidance that would come out of that?

Chris: uh that that Chris who went through that big cast may come up again and instead of approaching it with chaos un approach it with more of a peace mentality that it's going to happen and there's going to be a way out as long as you shorten I'm I'm going to say this you know a thousand times is shortening the net you have in order to get to the small net you got to throw out the big net and now for me there's more of a piece when that big net Chris has to come out because he understands that you have to dwindle it down with a little bit of chaos but instead of the chaa chaos overwhelming me and and the chaos, you know, honestly making me go back to reinlist. Um, it helped me now when I have big cast situations, I understand know the steps to break it down.

And for that time that went from instead of shooting for a thousand applications, go talk to someone. And I recommend for everyone on active duty, go talk to someone in the reserves or the guard

because they have jobs on the outside, right? That's a great source just to go, what do you do

when you're not here on the weekend? and and and really listening to their story and then uh understanding what your values are. You know, what do you really approach? Because once that money comes, what are the where do the values go? What is it your time? Is it your purpose? You know, if you don't find those things, that's going to come up later. They may not align with the first place you land, right?

And uh again, that that dwindling down to that small net takes at peace of getting punched in the mouth.

PJ: Okay. Okay. So, if I were to summarize, you're saying that being okay with just it being the process that you have to cast a wide

— net

PJ: and then using the resources at hand, all um mentors and guard n uh national guard, sorry, excuse me, guard reserve in order to help you understand what they do.

So, learning from other people. And then you also mentioned values, which I'm a huge fan of actually. And I think that most people don't t take the time to really sit down and be deliberate about what those are. And furthermore, and I'll steal this from Tony Robbins, right? But like the whole idea of like values are great. A lot of times we have conflicting values, which is a whole another thing, but the rules to feel our values we tend to make really hard. So, we tend to make it a dirt road to feeling good and a highway to feeling bad, right? Um, I think that values again are an often overlooked thing. How would you go about maybe recommending that someone discover their values or even create them?

Chris: So, I would say, you know, again, we're taught to embrace the suck, right? We're we're almost

we're we are we are put in positions to just deal with it. And I would argue for me to find your values, do the opposite, which sounds insane, but again, whatever you hold of high value, V it be your relationship, be it be, you know, your mother, your brother, your anyone that you hold in high regards to. Um, I found a lot of the values I care about by talking to them more

because then their perspective is completely different. You know, I you know, when I enlisted, I was very ignorant to the fact that everyone I loved also enlisted. I I was I was cut off to that and finding my values I went in the opposite direction.

PJ: So what are your values?

Chris: So my values right now are are time uh purpose I would say and third is impact.

Um I really care about impact and I don't have to make it and when I say impact it doesn't have to be you know again I'm in banking doesn't have to be a $30 million deal. Um the impact could be as small as just the conversation. So not putting so much pressure on what I do every day just a small impact every day a small impact on something on someone. Um in terms of time managing it better you know we we we tend to take for granted how much how well we think we manage time and we really don't.

Yeah. Uh we really don't uh my my uh my phone will tell you different you know it's just uh time became very different for me once I found my values

you know instead of you know my I get a lot of I get a lot of flack well Chris you're coaching you're on the sports and I go well these are temporary things and now instead of instead of looking as time as being so little I'm looking at it as so big is that I only get to coach my kids for xyz I only get that instead of going well I lost four hours to this or six hours to that. I go, well, it's a short window.

It's really not forever. It's only pain is temporary, you know, and time is temporary. And the things I invest into aren't aren't these aren't these times sucking things. They're really not. Um, they may look like that to someone else who's, you know, well, you're at practice, you're here. And I go, well, no, it's it's it's small. We have a lot of if you wake up early enough, there's a lot of life. And I think I think we have to switch that mentality that we don't have to figure it out

that quick.

PJ: Well, here's a hack. Look at your phone and see what how much screen time you spend.

Chris: Yeah. I I I know.

PJ: You know what I mean?

Chris: Yeah. Yeah. I'm

PJ: Most of us spend way too much time on our phones and it's just a time suck to your point. And what could you do? What could you do with another two hours in your day? Because what's really interesting is even those that think we're really good with their phone probably spend upwards of two hours on our phone.

Chris: Oh, minimum.

PJ: Which is wild.

Chris: Minimum. I do it with my kids. Uh I'll pull their iPad and go, "Hey, you know what' you get better at today?"

And all this and I'll pull their iPad. I'm like, "You had three hours on here, buddy?

Like, what'd you get?" I'm like, "Hey, I'm not knocking the three hours, but what'd you do on the iPad for three hours? Did you look at something?" And they look down like, "No, I didn't." And and I don't do it, you know, I I do it just to give them, you know, an understanding of like, hey, like

PJ: shine the light.

Chris: Yeah. 30 minutes of doing something else could have went, you know, a long way, you know. And again, back to my point with impact, you know, I used to think, oh, if I have to work out four hours a day, well, no, consistency is better than than consistency is better than putting in a ton of hours. So instead of me working out for three hours in a day and then not recovering for three days and being dead sore, you know, I cut it back, you know, I and again I've taken those small little microtransactions into my bigger transactions

from from the way I interact with my clients, from the way I interact with my wife. Um, even our fights, like what's the point of having a 4-hour fight? Just break it up. Break it up. Yeah. And it works for me. It works for me. Uh but the same thing that you know go back to you know transitioning for veterans small wins every day instead of um small wins go a long way because it allows you to adjust.

PJ: Yeah.

Chris: If you don't leave your if you don't leave room for adjustment you're going to you're going to drown.

PJ: Oh, I totally agree. Consistency is king.

Consistency is king. And and hey, look at the data behind like a New Year's resolution for instance,

Chris: which I don't believe in.

PJ: Well, I mean I think hey, goals are great. Um, I think that the real takeaway here is consistency, right? Because you you see it's like I think it's something like 23% of people have already fallen off by the second week of January.

And then it's something like and I'm going to butcher this, but it's something like 60% of people have already dropped off by like March.

Chris: Yeah.

PJ: You know, and that's wild. It's literally something like 5% of people are still going by December. Consistency is king. If you can consistently take one bite out of the elephant every single day, that elephant's going to be gone here in a couple months, you know, like you were just, in fact, I pull a quote from the last one. You you said, "If I tell you to go on a thousand mile rough march, you're crazy,

— right?

— One step a day,

PJ: you know, it might take you a while, but you're going to get there."

And it's it's the whole idea again of like, you know, 1% change. 1% change a day, you know, like what's 1% times 365, man.

Chris: And and I look at that as a debt to myself, a good debt. I look at it as a good debt. And you know, I ask everyone who's going through it to look at it as it's a debt to you. That's a good debt.

You owe yourself to work somewhere that you enjoy. You owe yourself to work somewhere where you have purpose. Absolutely. You owe yourself these things. The problem is

time doesn't reflect that all the time. you have to go through. You got to get your your punches in the mouth. And I think one of the hardest things I had to deal with was that no one owed me anything. You know, uh my service was to myself and you know uh um and and I ask I beg employers to talk to your veterans and understand what they did in the military. You know, not just to look at the the the outside of you know the discipline on time, understand structure.

I I I challenge your employers to look a little deeper than that because again, we we come from the best team sport. So that the the the best role you did may not be the role you enjoyed in the military, but it's the role that the military needed you to fill. And due to our our commitment to teamwork, we didn't care.

We did the job we had to. We didn't go and again

because we valued service. We value again and that's where the impact and the time comes in is that

we have to rewire that to something different and rewire that to ourselves to understand you know your your your big net your 3,000 jobs you apply for your first landing spot isn't your forever spot. It could be and I pray I pray that it could be for you but in reality you don't understand what a good boss is till you have a bad one.

PJ: So what is an actionable step for someone to take getting out of the military to discover that?

Chris: U again sticking it's it comes so it comes down to discipline you know and keeping that debt to yourself. But it really comes down to becoming a lot more analytical. You don't have someone hanging over you. There isn't a you don't have an NCO. You don't have a commander to make sure you're you're doing these things. You have to be that to yourself.

PJ: Yeah.

Chris: And u again what was big for me was exposure. um multiple job fairs, applying um and again don't let go of the skills you know. Uh the way I got hired at my first banking job, I literally just stood outside the bank two or three days before my interview and just did recon. And I went into my interview and I said, you know, I'm not going to sear and sell you on what I did because I'd never worked in a bank. But what I did do is I understand the clientele that you have coming in.

I understood when they're coming in. I understood when your tellers were going to lunch. I just literally did what anyone else would do in uniform of find the controllables. Find the controllables and those controllables we take%

yeah and but our controllables I think we we we

we under we don't give them enough equity

because some like because you know everyone everyone always has a story about someone who's like super human in their unit. So, we tend to undervalue the skills that we have

because there were we weren't allowed to you weren't allowed to, you know, boast. And I I would I would really argue for you to have a different mentality and be super proud of what you did and understand is that you are you're a phenomenal tool for a lot of employers. And what I ask is when you do go and get employed, understand you represent the next guy that's applying. And I take that very I I I I I live that every day. I'm not just representing Chris Payano.

I'm representing the the the the 26 year old Chris who's who was on who's on LinkedIn and Indeed who's just spraying and praying that he found somewhere you represent that guy. So when they go somewhere and there is a Chris there, they have someone to refer to.

So I really beg I really I really am begging for for us to as a as a brotherhood sisterhood to represent for each other.

PJ: Yeah. Yeah. I like that you mentioned being analytical. Um, and I understand that during the period of transition, how chaotic it can be and being analytical is probably the the furthest thing from our minds. But what have we taught, you know, calm in the storm, calm during battle, during chaos, right? And this is a time to really sit

and do a battlefield assessment on your own situation, on your skills, take an inventory. We all know how to take inventory, don't we?

Um, and and then find the 80%, you know, the 20% that's going to lead to your 80% outcome. I'll give you for instance, and kind of what you were talking about of of going casting a wide net. Something that worked for me personally was I I came up with three different résumés to start and then I sent each one out, you know, across the platforms, but I used I don't if you you ever seen like on Google how you can on Gmail how you can add the plus and then whatever.

So I would add my email. So um what whatever the prefix is plus v1gmail.com and then that was this this resume. And then I did plus V2, plus V3, and then I saw which ones I got the most responses on. Oh, V3. Cool. So then I took V3 and I make three more versions of it. And then it was like again my email plus V3.1 and that sort of thing. And I did the same thing. And I just I I it was data gathering, right? And I I just narrowed in, narrowed, and narrowed in.

So I casted a wide net, but I got narrow on the backside. And actually a a great cross-d discipline thing to use if you've never taken a look at it is is Google's design thinking it's called the double diamond theory where or double diamond exercise as it were where you go wide first and then you narrow in and then you go wide again okay and then you narrow in right and it's just that same thing right I created three narrowed into one created three narrowed in one and by the end dude I probably again like you probably applied to a thousand

Chris: yeah and you're you're trimming that net every single times, man.

PJ: I had so many like responses on that last resume. I was like, "Cool.

I know what works.

— That worked.

— Do your recce."

— Yeah.

PJ: So, I I'm curious. We talked a little bit of toughness. How would you define toughness this like at this point in your life?

Chris: No man. Um toughness for me right now looks uh a lot different. I would say toughness comes in more of patience and forgiving. M

that's that was I think those two are the biggest impacts on my toughness.

PJ: Why do you say

Chris: uh forgiving myself you know uh I I love where I'm at now and you know a part of me is like man I wish I got into this earlier. Where would I be now? I do a lot of I I you know I'm I'm uh I'm still transitioning and um I go through the whatifs a lot like what if I got here earlier? What if I did this or what if you know again we all you knowh Marvel's obsessed with the multiveres right? And I think we do.

I think the the big attraction to that is that we look at ourselves and go, "Well, what if I, you know, maybe started my transition period earlier and I didn't have to go through these three bad jobs to get to this job or, you know, what what if what if what if and I think strength now or toughness for me is forgiving that

is going just just keep moving forward. You can't change that.

There's no there's no equity in trying to change what if. So yeah, peace peace and uh and there's good and there's even better things to come. You know, there's going to be bumps. there's going to be that. But, uh, patience and forgiving, um, have have made me feel a lot tougher because I couldn't do that before.

I wasn't I wasn't good at those things before.

PJ: Interesting. So, this isn't so much toughness of body.

Chris: No,

PJ: this is toughness of mind,

right?

Chris: I am dangerous now. I am more dangerous now than I've ever been.

PJ: Yeah.

Chris: And and I I wish I could have, you know, had that again. I'm doing it now. I wish I could have brought that on earlier to talk to, you know, some more junior enlisted about how toughness looked like and uh that that's that's I'm literally doing it on camera of forgiving myself of no, I had to grow up to get to that point. But um

PJ: and what do you think helped you do that? What was the shift?

Chris: Uh sticking to my values and and committing to those instead of changing it. Um, what I what I I always uh just talking to my my uh my other coach about it is that there's so many synonyms of words that aren't even synonyms. They just uh where someone can call me arrogant, I can be passionate,

you know. So, absolutely. And and and there's so many words like that that we do to ourselves that, you know, instead of changing it, just look at the word different.

Change the perspective different. I'm not I'm not A. I'm really B. And B is really close to A. It's just a different version. So perspective has been really big for me. You know, again, I get to I I am blessed to work with a lot of people from a lot of different backgrounds. Um most of a lot of them are veterans or or of the mentality and they don't know it. I have a lot of guys that I've talked to. I'm like, "Hey man, you would have you you would have crushed it in uniform, man." And so I think that that mentality um shifted a lot for me, man.

It it really did. Um our talks shifted a lot. And you know, I thank you for that. And I I really would I really hope that everyone out there can find someone they can just have a

disconnected third party conversation with that there's no fear of judgment or you're just

— the ego

Chris: scalpel through just analyzing what's going on um in the world in your life.

Um and you know it's it's therapy should be done in different forms and I do it through you know coaching. I do it through talking to you. through I even do it through talking to my wife now who I used to not talk to anything about it she doesn't know well no I I I as someone who committed to her she should know more about me I owe that to her and she she has been a a very big influence on on getting through it because again her perspective is vastly different than mine and uh that helps me change my perspective on how to look at things.

PJ: I love that you said what you touched on there of she doesn't know. Can you talk to me about the dangers of that phrase?

Chris: Oh, a lot of dangers. You know, I I think a lot of people agree out there, you know, my wife's like, "I'm hungry." I'm like, "You don't know what hungry is." Like, you know, there's there's this there's this chip on our shoulder. And there is. And and we you know, I'll say it. We deserve that chip because if if if you know, that chip's available to a lot of people. It's free to enlist. So if they want the trip, they can come get it. But um we shouldn't hold it against people.

PJ: No, not at all.

Chris: We shouldn't hold it against people at all.

PJ: I think what I was trying to get out there was what's interesting about that phrase is it doesn't allow them

— to know. We're we're we're the we're the wall.

PJ: Exactly.

Chris: We are the wall and we want them to get over the wall, but we're just building another brick.

PJ: You say you can't understand or you or they don't know.

Well, they don't know because you're not letting them know.

Chris: And that even that even goes to your employer. Mhm.

But and and and that's where I challenge employers to, you know, understand their

PJ: I agree with that. I agree with that. That's what it takes to be a good leader is to really help someone understand their values and help direct them in that way, too. That's how you really help them blossom, you know.

Um, dude, uh, that was a that was a good one. I I appreciate you bringing that up. And I think that this this kind of goes back to that that toughness piece as well,

right? of because I think that in my opinion there's there's an ego aspect here, right? And we think that being tough is not letting people in when in fact I think that tough toughness really is letting people in and setting your ego aside.

Chris: And it bleeds into a lot of things. It bleeds into your resume writing. It bleeds into your interviewing. It bleeds into things you're not aware of.

PJ: Yeah. Oh my god.

Chris: It bleeds into a lot. Like I look back at some things and I'm like, "Hey, that guy should have that guy should have cracked me."

But, you know, being 250 helps.

But, you know, there there's it bleeds in a lot of things and we're not aware that we're we're doing it.

So, uh,

again, I think a lot of refle reflection could be good and bad.

Um, as long as you have a good attitude going into your reflection.

PJ: Oh, I Oh, yes. What's the purpose?

Chris: Yeah. You can you can take that shovel and hit gold or you can hit that shovel and and hit some hit some hit some things that you can't you know bury again.

PJ: Well, yeah. And I think that the it's what's the intention?

What are you going into it to do, right? Are you going into it to grow or you going into it to beat yourself up?

Right. I think that what's really interesting um is is the whole idea of like have you ever seen a really shitty movie?

Chris: Mhm.

PJ: Yeah. How many times have you gone back to watch that really shitty movie?

Chris: Not much.

PJ: Yeah. Right. How often do we go back to visit a really shitty thoughts?

Chris: Pretty frequent. Yeah.

PJ: How does that make any sense?

Chris: They happen. I'll tell you right now between 2:30 and 3:15 is did I really do that? Like did I really? And then, you know, I'm like, well,

PJ: but the point remains, right? Like why why would we go back? And to your point of time, dude, why would we waste our time going back to revisit old shitty thoughts that don't serve anyone or anything? And I get it. We're human. This is not unnatural. It It happens. We do this. This is a silly human thing that we do, but it doesn't serve us.

Chris: We didn't heal it. It's going to keep up.

It's going to keep popping up till we till we bop it on the head and put it back where it needs to be. Um it's it's it's and most of and that's where you know the anxiety comes into play and that's where the shutting down comes in you know you know

again I I always thought oh you know I'll just do the job my employees won't understand me and I was okay with that

and it wasn't okay because they do want to understand you know they they do there there are people out there that genuinely do want to understand

PJ: absolutely

Chris: and u they're not easy to find I'll be honest um I would love to say that you know they're a dime a dozen they're not and that's where the That's where the skills that we learned come into play which is perseverance. Again that's where that's where that forward mentality that external that's where all that comes into play is that we have to do that but instead of doing it for you know the greater good of the military we have to do it for ourselves.

We have to make ourselves in

in in in a racial term we have to make ourselves the US

or the world defense. We have to put ourselves as that. And there's no, and that's where I, you know, I go back to saying it kind of feels selfish,

but it's it's all right.

PJ: But it's because it bleeds out into everyone you talk to. It bleeds out into your kids. Dude, you know a phrase that I heard some somewhat recently that punch in the freaking stomach.

What you don't transform, you transfer.

Chris: Yeah.

PJ: Right. So, it's not selfish

for you to work on yourself. You are making your kids stronger.

Chris: I I think about that daily. I think about that all the time. Um and and I think also revisiting some old relationships can help that,

you know. Uh um again, talk to your buddies, talk to them. Don't don't do the everything's fine talk like really really understand what's going on because uh you can make you could you could you could get them to see that through through a really good conversation.

PJ: Would you define that as toughness?

Chris: Oh, 100%. Yeah,

100%. Which I didn't before. Before it was out of sight, out of mind, you know, but now it's again patience, value, time that that comes into play. And it not not everyone you talk to has to be another veteran. I mean, one of my best friends that I talk to now, he's a he's a teacher over at Liberty and he understands everything. And uh I actually go in there uh probably once a month and talk to students about it.

PJ: Really?

Chris: Yeah. And there's and there's no

there's no pulling. It's just it's just honesty about my experience, what it's done. Um, it's it's done a lot of great things for me and I, you know, I think the the press right now kind of isn't showcasing all the positivity of it, but you know, again, for for everyone who wants to be part of a big team, it's it's a really good decision.

PJ: Yeah,

Chris: it's a really good commitment.

PJ: Yeah. You know, so the values piece is interesting to me. Um, and I I've touched on this in an earlier episode, but you know, you were just mentioning anxiety and and working through really just like accepting a position, but maybe doesn't align with your values because accepting is good. I think that accepting is important. And I think that like there's also there's an accepting of things that are out of your control, right? As we've mentioned, and an accepting of things within your control. And I think that when you accept things that are within your control but are out of alignment, that's a lot of where anxiety comes from.

And and I know personally that's where it came from for me. And a lot of that was one, I was unclear on my values, but two, I wasn't living my values, especially when I got out of the military. Right. And that personally was extremely detrimental. And by the way, started in the military.

Chris: Yeah.

PJ: Because I was not living who I wanted to be. And that led to a massive amount of anxiety. It wasn't until I became very clear on my values and then grew confident in them that all of a sudden it was like, "Oh, well, do I need to be anxious?" No, I'm living in alignment with who I I know I am. Right now all of a sudden anxiety is out the window because I'm being me.

Chris: Yeah.

PJ: Um and again, that comes down to rules and that there's whole exercises to be able to do that. But I think that if you can sit down and spend, I don't know, a half an hour of just being like, what's important to me? What am I doing to show that that thing's important to me? And if I'm not doing something to show that it's important to me, what can I adjust? It's pretty it's pretty easy, but it's work that not a lot of people do.

Chris: We don't we don't like to simplify things for some reason.

PJ: No.

Chris: And I I you know, any client that's worked with me, that's the first thing. Let's simplify it.

PJ: Yeah. Simple works.

Chris: Simple works.

Listen, simple simple works. Um, you know, maybe I'm putting it out there, but I ran five plays.

PJ: Simple works.

Chris: Yeah.

PJ: You have to become a master of those of the simplicity.

Chris: Oh,

PJ: because we over we once we want to become so complicated because again we we want simple stupid, right? We know this. We want the title though because the tit we look at you know the title come you many titles are are so inflated but you know they come with this this honor that this person can understand all these super complicated things but in reality it's just positive and negative and balancing positive and negative. How much positive do you want to put in? How much negative you willing to take to get to that positive?

Um because negatives can turn into a positive. Think about like the complicated things. The people who who are putting on a pedestal for being able to understand very complicated things is because they've made it simple. Look at Einstein. What did he do? Dude, he took very complicated things and he made them in everyday like um what do you call it? Like he related them to everyday items. He talks about the if a person's riding a bike in a speed of light, right? He made it super simple.

So it's it's to your point, it's not about understanding something that's very complicated. It is about taking something and making it simple. And if you can do that consistently, now you're taking the bites out of the elephant and all of a sudden that big thing that we wanted to tackle is done because we broke it into something simple.

Chris: I would I would argue comedians do a great job of

simplifying really complicated things. But it the impact is Yeah. You know, I've watched a lot of comedians and they have this great way of just like you go that's

that is easier than I thought it was. But you laughed and then when you laugh you absorb it because it's simp because you're like it really is that simple and uh you know and and I think it comes down to us wanting to stand out so much that we want to over complicate things because that's what makes us important. And in reality what's made my career blossom was just being simple and being me. You know I and again I'm going to challenge employers when you do talk to your veterans is just allow them to be them

because they're doing their best to fit. They come from a world where they are they are plugandplay for the for the better good of the mission. And I would challenge that if you want to get everything out of that out of that employee, ask them just let them be them.

PJ: Yeah.

Chris: You know, that was one of the biggest compliments that I've gotten um at my current spot is that, you know, I was just told be you. And I was like,

PJ: what if they don't know who they are?

Chris: That again, that comes with the patience. that comes with accepting that, hey, I'm I'm I'm even though I've put in 10, 20, you know, even 30 years of service, this is a brand new chapter. And that's that's scary for anybody. I don't care. I mean, you you could that that goes from the top to the bottom. Anyone who's doing something different after that much time, there's there's a fear factor that's really big. And if we don't have a healthy relationship with fear, we get in trouble.

PJ: Well, that's Yes, I agree with that. I agree with that. there's no growth and comfort. What um how would you give someone guidance on helping to identify who they are?

— Uh identity

PJ: especially after coming out of the military where the identity piece is so strong. We know who we are because we're issued that piece now in the world where it's your oyster.

How do you find that?

Chris: Uh, one of the things I did, uh, I had a I had a I had a really good client of mine teach me that money is a tool.

And what do you love to do that has nothing to do with money? Just picture all the things that you enjoy. Take money, take judgment, take all that off the table. What do what do you cling on to the most? And that's how I found a lot of who I am.

You know, like what if what if you got paid to do the thing you love the most? What would that be? And then eventually that's how I I started to understand that this this thing that we're all fighting for and going nuts for because again we had that comfort in the military. We were the first and 15th. We were getting this. There was no complications. There was there was nothing. So

as much as I hate talking about money, it's a big

it's big in terms of our personality because it gives us comfort. We know these things. Well, if you go to a commission job or you go to a job where you have to produce, now you're like,

whoa. And then it then and then it washes away grabbing those values. Yeah.

So, what I what I recommend is find that is think just just take money as much as it's

impossible to say because again, most of us are a type and want to provide and that's how we define ourselves, especially as as fathers. That's literally, you know, programmed in it. It's hard to do that. It really is. But again, that's where it comes to talking to someone else.

PJ: Yeah.

Chris: Talking to someone else that's going through it. You know, have a battle. There's nothing wrong with having a battle buddy who wasn't even in the military.

PJ: Oh, absolutely.

Chris: There there's nothing wrong with that at all. And just having having that relationship again.

Find your tribe. As as cliche, find your tribe. I My tribe are are dads who like beer and coaching.

They're, you know, they're not operators. They're not they're not, you know, the you know, they're not these, you know, these guys. They're they're they're just dads with small dogs that like IPAs and I am and and again going back to toughness. I absolutely love it.

PJ: Yeah.

Chris: Because I'm not different at all.

PJ: Yeah.

Chris: They call me, you know, I'm a little you know, you know, they call me crazy Chris.

You know, but there's there's there's

we don't have to close it off so much. Yeah.

And in terms of finding your value, don't don't be so. You're not you just again cast the net. Cast the net. Cast it bigger. um let let people in. They're not like we'll be okay.

PJ: Yeah,

Chris: we'll be okay.

PJ: Yeah, I I do agree. Um and and I think that there's there's we can't overlook this, right? In that money, as you're saying, is security, it's comfort, right?

But what's the base of Maslow's hierarchy, right? It's safety. And and the hard part is, and you touched on this last time, was like, what if I took one of my bar tabs a week and put it in the savings?

What did that what does it actually buy you though?

— It buys you that safety. It buys you a foundation.

Chris: It's more emotional than than

PJ: Yeah. But if you do have people you're relying on or that are relying on you rather right

now there's there's that additional pressure and we may be more inclined now to take whatever we can get coming out of the military because we didn't do the work up front. I get it. A lot of us are enjoying our time as we should be and that's great and I'm glad you're doing it. and coming out now all of a sudden there's this big piece of pressure because people rely on us and my base need is not being taken care of. How do you overcome that?

Chris: That goes back to resources.

PJ: Yeah,

Chris: that comes back to resources. That comes back to starting and and I and I beg start your transition. If you think it's going to be next year, start it yesterday. Um and and again once you take the emotional aspect out of that safety and just make it for what it is, it'll allow you to

put your efforts where they belong.

PJ: Yeah.

Chris: So like so for me that that was that wasn't easy, but that's utilizing your Post-9/11. That's utilizing um you know your TAP resource. That's utilizing all these these transition programs to start it because you it could be a week or it could be three years.

You you don't no one's you're not guaranteed anything.

PJ: Absolutely. And that's that's where

so that safety is an illusion.

Chris: Yeah. That that safety and and it comes down to faith in yourself.

PJ: Yeah.

Chris: Faith in one it really

for me, you know, I look back at the things I I did and

you know, still do and I'm like, well, where did I get that from?

And it just came down to faith in me because

you have I I I unfortunately didn't reach out for help the way I should have. And I put a lot of things on myself that I didn't have to, but that was my ego. that was, oh, I'll figure it out,

— right?

Chris: I'm I can do this. I can do this. And I would have gotten back a lot more time if I

let go a little more.

PJ: Sure.

Chris: And because again, again, like you say, going back to you, um, when I talk to business owners, I I speak to values. You don't have to do every job.

And a lot of guys in that I work with try to do every job, you know, and they want to make the million. And I'm like, well, you're you're you're not going to get that time back of seeing your daughter play on Saturday. Well, then they also become the biggest bottleneck, which is something else.

— And and the biggest the best thing we could do as leaders is create more leaders.

Chris: And that that really hit me.

PJ: That's the that's the hallmark of

Chris: that's that's what hit me is, well, yeah, you're good, but like, can you make five more of you good? Can you make 10 more of you good? 15 more of you good. And again, I preach that with with with coaching. I can, you know,

I've never won a game with only one player.

PJ: No, you have to forfeit.

Chris: Yeah. Yeah. I I've never done that. But yet, when we're transitioning, we we we somehow forget that

and we go, "Well, we could do it all." And that's where the spray and prey comes with with the resume writing. That's where that's where not reaching out for help happens and being so a typeminded that the thing that we're actually really good at, we don't apply to ourselves.

PJ: Oh, absolutely. And I'm I'd love to really like nail down what that is because I've done it

— and I did it and I don't even know how to really word why I was like that, you know, I was because I mean and it may be because of my environment. It may be that I wasn't wearing the uniform every day that it took my mentality out of it.

PJ: So, we're we're dancing around this. Um, last time you talked about providing verse purpose and so I would love to get your thoughts on on that dichotomy of of happiness verse providing,

right? And and which again we've been dancing around this. There's there's the safety and then there's the, you know, what's actually going to there's the short-term safety versus maybe in some ways the long-term safety here, right?

Um, what's your thought on that?

Chris: So for the long-term safety, it came into again peace with I always want to develop. I always want to grow.

PJ: Yeah.

Chris: Instead of being linear that I want to be this, this, and that. I just want to grow. However that and I've I've let go of the leash of being

being linear that I want to be that, I want to be that, I want to be that. I just made peace with growing. And that's my long term. I know at 70, if I make this piece now, I'll have even more time at at at at 10 years, 20 years, or 30 years from now, that I can continue to to provide and still be happy.

So, I I think we we we need to stop leaning on titles or salaries to make us what we are and understand that investment in ourselves.

If I had to start over tomorrow, I would be okay.

PJ: Yeah. Yeah,

Chris: because of that that commitment to growth and that piece of I don't have to fight a million people. I just have to fight me and if I beat me I'll be okay.

PJ: Oh, I don't even think it this is just my take. I I don't even think it requires fighting. Now I well I was I I was talking to my son about this recently of like you know everything that I do I shouldn't say everything I do but there's a good number of things that I do earlier in the day that are battles with my own mind in order to get myself right for the day right and it's working out it's taking a cold shower or whatever it's it's those sorts of things where your mind's going no it's getting out of bed sometimes you know what I mean but it's it's this

that's the battle and I also think there's this idea of fighting life that I think a lot of people are caught up in. And this goes back to that that bell curve, right? We're trying to control the things that's uncontrollable. And I think it's really a really incredible metaphor of like the martial arts master, the person who is really really good at martial arts, what do they actually do? Are they fighting the other opponent?

Chris: No. No.

— What they're doing is red re red like deflecting the energy so that opponent is fighting themsel. They're experts at countering.

PJ: Yeah. They're experts at redirecting energy. And that to the accepting point is really truly in in in my opinion a true um secret in life. Right? If you can learn how to redirect the energy of the situation, right now you're, and I've said this one on the show before, right? But now you're taking horse and turning it into lemonade. Right? Now you're really able to take a bad situation and make it good. Not because you're fighting it, because you're taking the energy of the situation and you're redirecting it. Um,

Chris: that's that's awesome you say that. I I actually had a really good talk with my wife about, you know, when we do get in an argument, it's not it's not me fighting you, it's us fighting the argument. Yeah, absolutely.

And I transition that to work. You know, when I work again wi with with, you know, struggle is, you know, our mentality is very different. We take the fastest, straightest possible path. And you know, unfortunately in the corporate world, it may be a Z, a G, or an F to get somewhere. And that's not going to change. What can change is you bettering the relationship with the people along that journey. And that comes from understanding, I'm not arguing with you. I'm arguing with us getting to the solution, us getting to the end of this, whatever that may be.

We're on the same team. And I and I think veterans have to, you know, employers and veterans can have that that have that again when once that relationship becomes a symbiosis, it's it's really impactful.

PJ: Well, this is something that we have practice at. We're really good at this, right, at being team players.

Chris: But you then that employer, that's where I challenge that employer to let him be there.

PJ: Yeah.

Chris: Let him be there because where he doesn't make where he doesn't or he or she doesn't have in an experience or direct job, they have in that.

Yeah. they have in that

the will do the job,

right? You know, I joke around with my employer. I'm like, "Hey, I can I can bring up camaraderie. You just can't see what I'm doing.

What do you mean?" I'm like, "I just

the way I would do it wouldn't work." Wouldn't work. It would work, but you would guys wouldn't allow it.

PJ: Yeah.

Chris: Yeah. You know what I mean? And it's just there's just uh it really comes down to like having like a sharp team within yourself and each one of them have a different responsibility but they're all at peace with each other

which is what we do on the outside in the military you know like you know we all have someone we didn't like but we knew they could do the job.

Absolutely. And it didn't matter. We never second guessed it. And we we weren't the priority. And I think that's what one of the biggest issues with transitioning is is that now we get to be the priority. We just didn't do it. That muscle hasn't been worked.

PJ: Yeah. Yes.

Chris: That muscle hasn't been worked. And and and that's where, you know, those relationships matter because they go, "No, we want you to be a priority, but we don't even know how to make ourselves priority. We don't know how to tell that employer. We don't know how to re how to replicate that in the resume, which is why a lot of us, you know, tend to stick to military language because that's our comfort zone. Yeah. And I don't want to water it down by making it this other. You're not. You're just becoming more open. You're becoming more tough. You're you're growing that toughness by allowing who you are and marketing yourself better by allowing that in.

PJ: And how do you break through that?

Chris: Uh that that's that's on you. That's that's that man in the mirror. That's that self- conversation of if the people you're providing for whether it be yourself or that's an acceptance you have to deal with. And I would argue for military leaders uh for senior for senior leadership to have that talk with their guys transitioning is that I don't I I still want to be a phone call away. I still want to be there to just because we're not you know working together anymore. I want you to these are the things that I really saw in you and value because again our senior leaders are are are mentors for us and just because we leave doesn't mean we still can't talk to them. Absolutely.

They're not banned. You know there's like it's like well you're not on a DSN you can't talk to me.

No that's not true at all. So I would challenge senior leaders to help

uh you know not just go go to TAP not go to that. Um especially senior leaders I mean they they they wrote your reviews. They wrote you know they know your impact outside of just your role. Um, and I would challenge that, you know, still talk to them. You don't have to, you don't have to cold turkey the military. It could still, you know, it could still be part of your mentality.

PJ: Well, I think that the salesmanship we again, we talked about this last episode, too,

of that's a really, really challenging thing for a lot of us to overcome, of being able to talk about ourselves when we get out into the world because in ways it feels icky,

right? To borrow a term from my wife. Um, but the there's a reframe I think to be had here, right? Is what's your end goal? Why are you doing it right now? First off, you did a lot of great things and you're a valuable human being. You know, you've you've done a lot of awesome things in the service and it's helped make you who you are today. So, you have gifts and such to offer. Now, being able to talk about those things to sell yourself so that you can provide, so that you can have safety, so you can honestly be fulfilled and be happy and grow into the human being you want is a hard thing to do, but it's a it's a vital reframe to be had.

So, do you have any thoughts or techniques on like how to how to break through that barrier of to be able to sell oneself?

Chris: Um, sell yourself to yourself?

PJ: To yourself?

Chris: Yes.

PJ: What? like practice it

Chris: however you want to do it. Um for me it was walks

sell yourself to yourself.

If you don't believe what's coming out of you, no one else will.

PJ: Yeah. 100%.

Chris: And that comes back to living those values. Again, you don't have to re you don't have to recreate the wheel. If you're authentic about it, people like no tech will ever replace, you know, a good gut feeling. And if we can sell ourselves to ourselves and go and and and and again, it's not easy to get rid of that self-doubt. But if we believe we can do it and we we will get there.

PJ: Yeah.

Chris: We will. You will. I promise you, you will. And that's that's 100%. If you really believe you can do it, nothing. You're you're

again, you're you're not you don't stop yourself by your label. And I know I know exactly that feeling when you're doing that. You're doing your application. Are you a protected veteran? Are you this? And you're like, am I? I don't like

like you you no one's explained this to me like I don't want that special I am but I also don't want to list injury I don't want I don't want you to think I'm limited

but you got understand why is that employer asking that you know what's the incentive on their end so you know I I I till this day you know remember that page like I want to get it because of me

I want to get it because of me you know I don't want to get it because you have to fill a number I don't want to get it because you want to put me on like you know a brochure I want to get it because Chris earned it.

PJ: Yeah.

Chris: And there has to be a

PJ: because I earned it.

Chris: Yes. Thank you. Yes.

There has to be Yeah. There has to be a meat in the middle of that. That employer doesn't always know.

PJ: Yeah.

Chris: So, you can't you can't hold them to this ridiculous standard like they were next to you and you know they weren't. And the ones that do, they they they tend to to gravitate and be able to to do it. But

— you don't know what you don't know. Yeah.

Chris: You know. Yeah. And I always always bring it down to to what I do. My clients don't know till until I put it in front of them like, "Hey, you shouldn't do every job. I see you count on your fingers. I love you. You're really good at this task, but you shouldn't be doing your accounting." You know, it's nothing's nothing wrong with letting that go.

Yeah. And then you know and that's where when you let things go that you're not necessarily confident in you can focus on the confidence and let those things bring you up because then that's how you can sell yourself

is go oh well you know what are your weaknesses well these are the things that I had

and these are the things I did to that's what they really want to know.

They're not really asking you well can you can you not do 50 push-ups in a minute?

Did you have no looking at how did you when they ask in the interview what's your weakness? are asking what did you selfanalyze? What did you self-critique? And how did you what was your path?

PJ: Yeah.

Chris: This is what I wasn't good at. This is I became good at it or I gave it to someone else to do. They're looking for self leadership which we have

that.

PJ: Yes. Yes. Yes. Oh, I couldn't agree more, man.

Chris: Yeah.

PJ: Um I want to transition a little bit.

This is different. So you you talked about hating picking out your clothes.

Chris: I still do.

PJ: And and I understand this, but I'm curious to know what's really behind that.

Chris: H what's behind what's behind really hating picking out my clothes? Well, I mean, it's being bigger. It's hard. Just it's just that it comes down, you know, browns just works. Um, I uh I really honestly now that now that you say it, I really don't like standing out

and clothes really make you like again we we market ourselves

and I think my real and it's crazy that you say this now. I think my real stigma of not liking my clothes. I don't want to be judged from an external point.

But in reality, that's where it is. Like I have this, you know, this this madeup world where, you know, everyone's going to get to know people. And that's not how it works. You know, if I had my face tattooed, a lot of bass would be like, "Hey, we'll keep it on file. We'll we'll keep your we'll keep your resume on fire."

PJ: All right, Mike Tyson.

Chris: Yeah. You know what I mean? So, it's I think I think it really, you know, once I look at it at a deeper level, it's just I I I love what I do so much that I just want that to be reflected. I don't want any other distraction, you know? I don't want anything else to to to go. I don't want any smoke screen because I love that in the military.

You know, you got to know what everybody was from their badges, their rank, everything was external. Everything was

you could tell everyone by their their timing. Great. You could tell everything from the outside. And in the civilian world, that could be an illusion. because we know a lot of guys with the nice suits and the nice cars and then when I work with them I'm like whoa.

PJ: Yeah,

Chris: you are not doing well. So I I just I I think my reason is is I just don't want to I don't want to smoke anybody.

I' I'm too old for that.

PJ: So So digging into that a little more, do you think that that is a do you think that that served you or do you think that that's also hurting you?

Chris: I think it served me because once I committed to it, it became like my branding,

you know, uh, you know, it's funny whenever I go to networking events, I look for the guys that, you know, aren't

and there's nothing wrong with it. There's just there's just someone that I'm going to work with a little.

PJ: Do you think that that's hurt you in any way?

Chris: No, I think I think I've made it part of my branding.

PJ: Yeah.

Chris: Um, I really enjoy it. Um, you know, my boss will tell you he's like, I don't expect Chris to wear a suit to this event. and and I and and to me that's a form of respect and love of they know where to put me and again it gives me nostalgia to the military of there's like a little bit nostalgia yeah it lines up like that's that's not that's not Chris's thing but then I understand and where it comes back to the military is that

it's a it's a small reminder that I am part of a shark team I get to have this little niche in this big and that's why I always I really do advocate for uh veterans to transition to smaller companies uh you know put it out there. I know I know trash companies are hiring at 30 bucks an hour just to drive a truck and you're a small engineer. Um these smaller firms offer you to be a lot of you without the big, you know, you know, big stigma, the big company. So I really recommend to, you know, and those guys aren't on LinkedIn. Those guys aren't on Indeed. Um just get outside,

go down and go. Every every one of these small firms needs someone that you did. They need a salesperson, they need a bookkeeper, they need a they need a mechanic. All these small firms need what these big firms also need. So I really, really, really advocate to just door knock. You know, these guys are doing really well. Um, you know, if I knew trash was as lucrative as it is, I would have went in the trash. You know, like I I uh you know, I when I talk to when I talk at high schools and middle schools, I advocate for those. These these again, not everything is on your phone.

PJ: Yeah.

Chris: And I think when veterans are transitioning, they're looking for everything that's external to them.

Sure. Yeah. and we're not looking at our hometown like what's what's what's this what's this trash company doing? What's this roofing company doing? What are these small firms doing? Because again, that's where I think you eliminate a lot of that having to kiss the frog by being part of a small firm because you can figure out more of yourself versus getting lost.

PJ: Yeah.

Chris: So, I think that advocates for a lot. So, if if anything I really put behind is,

you know, there's nothing wrong with going to a small firm.

PJ: No,

Chris: you may wear more hats. you may get spread a little more thin, but that that gives you more of an opportunity to find yourself.

PJ: Well, I think in in ways you're talking about being resourceful, and that's something we we've talked a lot about on on this show, and and I I think it's one of the most valuable things that we have to offer as veterans, and you know, last episode you talked about resourceful is forever, and I agree with this. It's a muscle that we do.

Chris: Still live it.

PJ: So, what's the way do you think that veterans like underuse that?

Chris: Uh, they're looking for resources. some they're not looking re they're not looking at the resources under the rock.

PJ: I I think they're looking for the rock.

Chris: Yeah. They're they're looking for the resources that are just again external to them. They're not diving deeper into the resources that are literally down the street

which you know again uh your networking events, your small firms. Like there's a lot of resources out there that aren't going to come out and grab you. Yeah.

You kind of have to look for a couple of them. you have to get into explore mode. Um, you know, there's there's there's there's an app out there that helps you, you know, navigate all that. And I think those are those are the ones that that don't have, how do I put it? They don't uh they they do a better job of narrowing people down. I think a lot of resources cast a big net and then they keep you in that big net.

PJ: Yeah.

Chris: So, it it's resources that funnel

and I think that's it's hard. That's what we're looking for. A resource is that funnel.

PJ: Yeah. Well, and and so resourcefulness is is interesting, right? Because you can be resourceful in a wide variety of ways. And it sounds like this is just another means of being resourceful, but instead of casting a wide net, it's actually becoming a bit more myopic

in your local region. Um, so I'm curious, you know, are there any pieces of advice that you think that veterans get that that they love but actually hurts them on the transition

Chris: that they love?

PJ: Mhm.

Chris: Or something that we hear a lot. I I I keep bringing it back to just being I think a lot of veterans love being linear because there's safety and you don't have to be and and that goes back to the first time we talked your identity and your job being your your identity and I think a lot of veterans just go well this is what we're supposed to do. Yeah.

And we love that because we get to go back to our brotherhood. We get to go back where 80 90% of the employees are veterans. And I would challenge to make veteran more internal than an external thing. And that's where that's where you're going to find who you are. You have to step away from it. That's I think that's the biggest scary that's the big step is to go the thing that gave me the most safety. I have to literally like

step away sail away from it

and explore somewhere else but still have the the the the rubric or like you know the syllabus of where I came from and keep it with me. And I that's that's big. That's big.

PJ: Well, I love that you talked about making the external internal. Um, that's I've never heard that before and I really like that. It almost sounds like an exercise that we could do here is potentially take my identity as a veteran. What does it mean? And list all the things that it means, right? I'm disciplined. I'm on time. I'm resourceful. Whatever it may mean, and then take the things that you like about that and keep them.

You don't have to get rid of them. Those things are you. You can still keep those. Those are values that you that you value, right? take all the things you didn't like and set them free.

Chris: Yeah. You don't need them.

PJ: Yeah. And then you can take that external I am a military service member. I am a veteran and set the external aside and take all the beautiful things that make you you that you took took away and learned from that and and that make that internal. I like that

Chris: we get to we get to finally pick a hat.

— We don't have to wear

— we're all

— we don't and I think that's all trade

Chris: master. We get to we don't have to we don't have to. And that was one of the best things is that I get just to wear one hat.

PJ: Yeah.

Chris: And I get to wear that hat really well and it's my hat

and I get to own that hat and brand that hat instead of, you know, wearing myself thin across eight. And that's just that just comes to numbers and and what the job needs. But I get to do what Chris needs

and what Chris likes to do, what Chris loves to do.

And uh

it's and again again it's still it's an again there's peace. I've made peace that that's going to keep going and that may look different. I I may talk to you next next season and I'm like, "Hey, I'm I'm painting." And but there's not again there's a there's a piece to the the unknown I have because my base is so strong.

PJ: Yeah.

Chris: I made my base so strong and so tough

in a way that tough changed for me.

PJ: Yeah.

Chris: So if I have if I'm at peace that my tough will always change, I'm good to go. I'm with you.

You know, I I told I told my I told my dad, "You're the richest man in the world, you know." Well, I'm not. My dad's Army veteran. um you know, Marshall, and he was like, "What do you mean?" I'm like, "You know, both your both your sons are healthy and and doing pretty okay. Your grandkids live down the street. Um you're retired and we all we're all here for you.

You're rich, dude." Like,

PJ: yeah,

Chris: you're rich. And like

he took a step back and I was like, you know, you know, I told him, I'm like, and I'm getting there, too. You know, like one of one of the one of the best things to see is everyone around you that you like you put in time and effort into for you get to you get to see it.

PJ: Yeah.

Chris: Like enjoy it. Yeah.

Cuz he he uh

he had a hard time, you know, letting that mentality go and cuz he had to, you know, it was a different time. Resources were where they were. So there wasn't that that that ability to take off that hat and go find it's just again providing was his only thing. And now I get to tell him from my end, you know, thank you. Yeah. Thank you. It's not I get to say thank you and like

enjoy enjoy being rich. Quit being a crabby old man. Just

enjoy like stop being these old, you know, these old crabby veterans at McDonald's that are complaining about like just

enjoy it because I know I'm going to be there, too. We're going to we're probably going to be at McDonald's, you know, 30 years from now. Back in my day. Yeah. Back in my day. But uh I got to tell him like listen, like enjoy it because I'm grateful. Yeah.

You know, I'm I'm I'm super grateful. You know, I tell him all the time. I'm like, "Dude, sir, I survived you. I can survive anybody." But again, that came from I came from the military, you know? He uh

So, but that toughness I wouldn't had before.

PJ: Sure.

Chris: To talk to tell him that.

Not in a million years would I be able to tell, you know,

PJ: and it's so interesting because that's not like that's a harsh or

Chris: No, it's just there's a there's a thing out there, but we have it.

But, right. Yeah. I to say that on on this channel that you know like listen like

I'm cool with saying that you know I'm I I you know it's it's

it's it's wild just just to see I mean honestly just talking to you from last episode to now you know I I can't fake the growth.

PJ: Yeah.

Chris: You can hear it. I'm even hearing it out loud saying I'm like I I would I would have never admitted that. Like I have this ego. I'm like dude

you got curly hair and you're a youth coach. like quit quit quit quit quit quit trying to like you don't have like this this whole shell like

that's not it man that's not it you know what I mean like I I got kids right now that I coach that I know that you know they're going to call me when they're of age hopefully they get coaching I'm in trouble

you know I I can't wait to come get them and that's like that's like those are the things I get to like look forward to so I really I really beg every veteran they just

those things may not be you know directly in front of you. But as long as you practice those things, they'll come.

PJ: Yeah.

Chris: As someone who didn't think they would and was just trying to punch my way out of everything, I just

PJ: You don't have to fighting life.

— Yeah. You really don't have to punch everything.

Chris: Save it. Save save that muscle memory, you know, but, you know, understand that it could be chambered.

PJ: Absolutely.

Chris: You don't have to you don't have to have it ready to go. Yeah.

— You know, you can leave one out of the chamber. Leave it in the clip.

— Leave it in the clip. You can go empty because it's always going to be there. Mhm.

— You just don't have to always, you know, you know, be

— You don't have to leave with it.

— No.

PJ: Yeah. I I like this idea of, you know,

and we use it maybe not in the most helpful way out in society, but the idea of of multiple personalities,

we we have multiple personalities. We have, right, we have

Chris: the code switch like the best of them.

PJ: Absolutely. But but each one of those personalities comes with a different strength,

right? And you can put names on these different personalities, right? Um, one of the ones that I' I'd like to see is uh I can't remember the name of it. I think it's called it's not spiral dynamics. It's something else. But anyway, it's it's the idea of like we all have within us like a sovereign,

— like a king,

PJ: right? We all have within us like a like a magician.

We all have within us a warrior. And I think the warrior is the one we use

a lot, right?

So, we're very good at using the warrior, but a lot of these other things like the sovereign and and the magician and the lover, like they they don't get used as much, right? So they become not as strong because we practice is what we we have more of. Right.

And to your point, I think that we can holster some of the warrior because the warrior can get tired too just like anything else.

Chris: Gets very tired. His knees his knees and back go faster than the other ones. Um I call it tactical emotions. M

I go up uh again and going back to your point, all those things can be exercised

can be exercised outside of your expectation of what you think it should be. Yes.

So my love doesn't have to be to my wife, to my parents, to my kids. It could be to a lot of different things, you know, and and that's what I that's what I've taken away from a lot of our talks is that I don't have to make it fit in a box.

PJ: That's right. Yes.

Chris: I don't. And I used to I used to love my boxes. like I like, you know, I love lining up my trains, but now I now I look at, you know, I look at myself as less linear and more of a vortex,

you know, like just more of

— threedimensional.

Chris: Yeah. They don't have to fit, but yet they do really well.

Um because they're not they're not it's more of a

it's more of water, you know? It's it's get it fits where it needs to be. It overflows if it's not being stopped. So I I've looked at it, you know, really

really on a big expansion and and then that's where I advocate for, you know, what I did in interviews is I really got good at expanding on my thoughts and zeroing in and becoming more analytical. So I really I really ask guys that when you're talking, you're selling yourself. You don't need 50 million bullets because 10 really good ones are better than 50 mediocre ones.

PJ: Yeah.

Chris: So really zero in on

what you want to be and what you want to bring. Yeah,

if you don't want to bring that, then don't say it. That's the beauty of the surveable. There's no there's no

you can be whatever you want to be. And I think we're in this world where it's, you know, if a job in the military goes away, you have to pick another one.

Well, you get to be whatever you want out here. And this world's big.

PJ: Yeah.

Chris: And don't let the news scare you. Don't let all these don't don't let fear monger. You can do whatever you want.

PJ: Oh, absolutely.

Chris: You can start your own. I mean, I can start a business with someone from Kenya right now.

Yeah. you know, so there's there's just just block the noise and really find out what you want to do and only focus on that.

You know, if you if and and there's nothing wrong with having to do the job to keep the lights on. Because again, we we do have that is to provide. And you may not find out what you are until you go, "Oh, well, I wanted to be a cop. Maybe I didn't work out." You know, I know a lot of guys that went that route and they're like,

"Hey, I I just did it because comfort

culture." Yeah. All these things,

all these things were similar.

— It's a stepping stone.

Chris: And that's not who I am today. Who I was when I rose my hand and swore in isn't who I am a year, two years, three years, or five years from now. But the military does a really good job of making that person dormant

because it's not needed. You know, like again, we love creativity and operations and but we don't

we don't again because we're managing this really big ship that does a really big job. M

so it's it's not in their favor to look for what what makes Chris tick. No, it's what can Chris take for you, you know, and and um

we and again it takes it takes it's a journey and that journey never stops.

PJ: It never stops.

— The life journey.

PJ: So tell me what do you think that veterans often overthink especially upon getting out of the military?

Chris: What they can do?

PJ: What they can do.

Chris: Yeah, they overthink what they can do. um limiting they limit themselves. Um

yeah, they go well I only worked this there's no way I could do that.

Um so it's about it's about perspective on well what's the base of what you did and how can you take that and transition that over.

PJ: Okay.

Chris: So I think that's like the biggest fear is that if it's not close to what I did to what I think I want to do there's no way.

PJ: Yeah,

Chris: dude. I'm a I'm a banker.

Yeah. If you told me I would have been a banker 10 years ago, I would be right.

Like the guy who still puts R&L on his socks, like no, there's no way. I'm just, you know, I just there's no way.

I I was just such a brash hard. I never thought

I'd be in this field where like, you know, I'm built to knock on doors.

PJ: Yeah.

Chris: And so it's it's it's not staying within your bubble

because again, that bubble tends to be a lot lot bigger than what we give it credit to be. we can be a lot more and not only that we we have the discipline and we have the the ability to figure it out.

Yeah. So I think resourcefulness that's where resourcefulness

I think I think we really we really don't

again where where that net big net

could hurt it and also could help by going oh well I can I could do that you know and and if you fall you're fine dust your knees off do it again

that's part of the process it's part of it you know

PJ: what do you think that we underthink

Chris: that we underthink

that's a good one

uh I think we underthink I think we underthink I think our ability to sell

I don't think we I don't think we put as much effort into delivery that we should. I think we have kind of almost a sense of like owner owners like we're owed it that we don't concentrate on the selling.

Um I think we don't I think we underthink that a lot that we just look at well I can only go somewhere that

um is veteran friendly or veteran hire so I'm I'm just going to go there. So I don't think I don't I think we underthink the ability to sell because muscle's not there.

PJ: Yeah.

Chris: So it's not even underthink. I think it's just an under underdeveloped muscle.

PJ: Well, this is where I think zooming out could be really important. Well, also there's a lot we don't know. We don't know what we don't know. you know, like if you think about the corporate world and I've ever been in the corporate world, trying to say that, oh yeah, my ability to, you know, inventory um the the weapon, you know, um supplies and whatnot, right? Could translate into finances because I know how to keep a spreadsheet,

whatever it may be. It if we don't know, we don't know either. And I think that what you said earlier about talking to people out there is is probably really really useful. That's why I say reserve and guard units are really awesome resources. Yeah.

Chris: Because I know guys that own CPA firms and I'm like and they're a load master.

I'm like well how do you how are you doing the two

and you know most of them and I would say a majority would really have an open like a really open talk on like why are they're in the reserves and then you almost get a redefinition of why you're in the military. You may be like, "Hey, I want to get as far as away." Or I still like like I still I I still, you know, I still love going back, you know, and through my reserve duty because I get reminded. It's a nice little It's a It's a nice little, you know,

— enough military.

Chris: Yeah. It's just enough for me to go, you know what? Life is life is all right. But it keeps me for me, it keeps me sharp. It keeps me grounded.

Um, you know, you know, these career fields, it's very easy to get lost. And again, once you move up, it's very easy to get lost in the title and the lifestyle. And this is a nice little like, hey,

PJ: yeah,

Chris: these are your roots, buddy. Like, don't forget.

PJ: So, what do you think that we get in the military that we should keep?

And what do you think we should let go of?

Chris: Uh, accountability is the first thing.

PJ: Let go of or keep.

Chris: Keep. Yeah.

Keep that accountability. But, but the only thing I would tweak is make that accountability for yourself in a positive way.

— Be accountable.

PJ: So, don't pop yourself up.

Chris: Yeah. Don't. And I know it's it's easier. It's easier to destroy than it is to create. It's easy. You know, I tell my wife all the time, you can't hurt my feelings more than I've hurt my own.

Where you think you went, I have gone miles below.

PJ: Yeah. Yeah.

Chris: Like I do this. I'm here all day. You're only here temporar. You're only in front of me temporarily. I'm here all day. I could do some damage.

Um, quiet that.

— What What's the equity in it?

— No.

PJ: What do you get out of it? It's served you in some capacity and it's helped make you strong and and sharper, but it also really doesn't serve us in the capacity of of breaking through because a lot of times, this is interesting, right? Is that a lot of times we will not play as big as we could play because we're actually afraid of the punishing that we'll do to ourselves.

Which is really interesting, right? And a lot of times that's just the voice that our parents gave us. So, thank you, mom and dad.

— Um,

Chris: yeah, it is, man. And it's it's it's contrast. Just contrast. Contrast. That's all it is. But I I really want I want I want veterans to keep that accountability. I I don't want them to just think I don't want them to overlook the little things that made them what they are. Making your bed. Um presentation.

Discipline. Don't don't just go don't put them in a bucket and go, "Oh, well that goes with the military. My 214 means that goes with it." Don't put the good things on there and let them go.

PJ: Yeah,

Chris: they're they're a really big part of it. And and be proudful. Be, you know, be, you know, I don't know if I said that right, but be be proud of what you did. Yeah.

— Um but it doesn't have to be your entire identity.

PJ: And it doesn't have to be ego.

Chris: No. Right. No, you can you can be proud of what you did without, you know,

lowering everyone around you.

PJ: That's right.

Chris: You know, u you could do it in a manner that's that's welcoming. you know, I I I

you know, I know guys that have every patch, every flag, and I know guys that I'm like I question them like, "You were in the military?" They just they're very very minimal about it. Um I think it's important for channels like this to give everyone

in that in that spectrum a chance to hear what's going on,

— right?

Chris: Because there's guys that I've met that I'm like, "Wow, no idea you were that cool." You know, and um Yeah. But I really I really beg for veterans to keep those good things.

Yeah. keep the positive feelings and then relationship building. Uh we we're really good at that and we think that once we're outside that base, we can't do it. No, we we we we go to bars. We have a good time there.

PJ: But think about how many different people that you've been able to be introduced to and then work together with in the military. I mean, this is probably going to be the most diverse crowd of people that you'll find

ever. You know, you won't get that as much in the civilian world, especially in certain areas of the world, right, where it's just one type of people. But like when you go into the military, you're exposed to everyone and your ability to relate to people is actually pretty incredible. Even though you have continuity, which is important, but that doesn't mean you can't find common ground,

right?

Chris: And and again, you learn what's important for the corporate world, the segmentation. you know, your C-suites, your senior leadership, you know, your middle management that you you already I mean, every career field has their their their culture and you being in the military, you can you can navigate through all of that.

PJ: Yeah.

Chris: Take that very same thing and apply it to the civilian world. You can talk to anybody.

PJ: Yeah.

Chris: You can talk to anyone. You know, you've done board interviews. You you you you've measured your uniform. You've you've done all these things. You've know you understand how to read law. I mean, we play down, you know, regulations. You're interpreting law.

So, now you know how to read and repeat. Like, all these little things that we do on a daily basis.

PJ: Yeah.

Chris: Are really big for employers out here. They love that, you know, because again, as as an NCO or junior NCO, you you have to understand perspective and then understand that law and make it as impactful and as fair as possible because you have you have morale to uphold. You have culture to like there's so many roles to leadership in the military that the civilian world goes, well, we have a department for all the hats that you wear. It's like, yeah, my department's here.

That's why we, you know, why we are the way we are. Yeah. So utilize that and and and

keep that keep please please please please please keep the ability to to to navigate through all that.

PJ: Yeah

Chris: because segmentation culture reading law discipline

they're not as common as you think are they really

PJ: tons of soft skills.

Chris: Yeah those soft skills are I you know I would love to redefine them as something else besides soft skills but they are impactful. Oh absolutely. you know, like they just just to hold a conversation. You know, a lot of people just

can't do, you know, I make fun I have a have a couple airmen that are iPad kids and I give them crap. But even they're going to have an advantage.

PJ: Yeah.

Chris: To stand out, you know, even they will, you know, you know, it's funny cuz, you know, it's funny. Even they cuz, you know, I see them run to the car during child time and they're on their iPad and I'm like, it just makes me laugh because I'm like even they are getting exposed to something that, you know, rest of the competition isn't. Uh which is why I believe you know youth sports are so big.

Um and and please like the therapy wise there's a program that's veterans to sidelines because they've seen that like coaching has been super

PJ: Oh man. Yes.

Chris: Not only that when you're transitioning it's great networking.

PJ: Yeah it is.

Chris: It's great networking. It's great networking. If they can trust you with a kid they can trust you with a referral.

PJ: Yeah.

Chris: So like if if you're you know you know get if you're Yeah. If you're going to school, if you're doing something temporarily, go volunteer to coach.

PJ: Yeah.

Chris: There's a there's someone out there who's watching who could help you out.

PJ: Yeah. And and it helps you be able to talk to civilians, too, while not completely losing a lot of, you know, your your vernacular, if you will.

Chris: Yes.

PJ: Um and and also I think that a lot of us sell ourselves short in our ability to lead. And this is leading in its most basic sense.

Chris: It's a good time.

— It is a good time.

Chris: You know, I got some nicknames for kids that, you know, when they get older, they're going to call me. I go, "All right, that's what you call me." I'm like, "Hey, it is what it is." But, uh, I just But I think therapy, it's been one of the great Again, that's where I found my tribe. Yeah.

I got to find guys that,

you know, I don't have to put up anything.

PJ: I'm with you.

Chris: Yeah. And and um coaching, youth coaching, especially youth coaching, um,

has done a lot for me. Yeah.

It's done a lot for my career. It's done a lot for my marriage. It's done a lot for my relationship with my kids. Um, and it's it's it's it's it's really all and it's two hours, three hours a week. It's a small commitment. So, if you're already, you know, applying for jobs, I really recommend to get into one of these jobs and just see what happens. Yeah. Nothing nothing bad will happen. You know, you again, back to your point, you're going to learn your vernacular is going to change. If you can talk to if you can talk to a 10-year-old, you can talk to you can talk to a recruiter

because then you now understand, you know, you get to practice that. Yeah.

Right. You get to and you get to you get to again measure your impact on how well you're doing. Are these kids responding to me? Are they moving? Do they hate me? And you get to adjust while you're learning, you know, and it's it's really uh I'll always be a huge advocate for you getting a youth coaching.

PJ: Oh, I think the kids

Chris: we're always hiring because it's a free track. We're not paying. We're not paying. But um but that goes back to my point. Once you make money a tool and start looking at the the the equity and the non-paying non-paying things, the networking, the relationship building, the coaching, that's where you have a different relationship with money because it's no long that becomes more of your safety. Your the the relation the network you build means more to you than

PJ: Well, it's the long-term safety.

Chris: Yeah, it does.

PJ: It's a long-term safety. I mean again to borrow from Alex Hormozi, I was watching a video where he was talking about how if he would have taken the money that he has paid for himself to train himself and learn skills and go to events and school and whatever else it may be and put it in S&P 500 back when he started. There is no possible way the return on investment would have been matched based on what he has learned. him investing in himself is the biggest you will have the biggest ROI out of anything else out there by investing into yourself than you would put it anywhere else. Um,

so speaking of which, last I asked you what was your favorite book, have you read since we last talked?

Chris: I'm not going to lie, it's been all it's been all it's been all um playbooks and coaching. We Yeah, you really get into it.

Yeah, it's been a lot. Um I I can't say you know shout out to the Bethlehem Bulldogs. Um we are we are again I I get to you know versus reading. So my my it's funny you say that my uh my other guy I coached with um who's become you know a brother to me um he's always on me for reading. He's big on reading and uh you know I didn't know it was a book. I didn't know. Again, you know, there's there's so many different things I'm learning

that I would never learn. Yeah. In the military. So, um he's he's on he's on your team.

PJ: Okay.

Chris: He's coming after me. Yeah. He's on your team coming after me for for for just been again I' I've made

I've made coaching such a

PJ: Well, you've chosen a path and and there's nothing wrong with that. There's nothing wrong.

Chris: No, but I I but again to speak to speak to values, I want my kids to read. So that's something that I have to do too because again it's not just I I don't want to create just better athletes. I want to create better men for tomorrow.

PJ: Absolutely.

Chris: That's it. That's literally all I all I want kids is just to be a little better

PJ: well grow into who we are. So our job really is to grow into the people we want them to be.

Chris: Yeah.

And and I've learned I've learned a lot about myself and coaches. So I really

again

those are skills coaching we all do in the military. Yeah.

— We've coached one way or the other.

— That's right. You can do it.

— That's right.

Chris: Yeah. You and you're not coaching the sport till maybe 12. It's a lot of handholding, crying, fighting. Like it's not like people get overwhelmed thinking like, "Oh, I have to be an expert." No, you just

have to manage chaos, which

— we know how to do

Chris: out of boot camp. 90% of us, yeah, we can crisis management.

— We can we can handle that.

PJ: Yeah, man.

— Yeah. So,

PJ: well, I appreciate you, my friend. You You are full of all sorts of incredible golden nuggets, and I appreciate you coming on and sharing them again. As always, if you have any feedback, please drop it below. Hopefully, you like this style better of the content and the questions that we're asking, trying to make it a bit more actionable and providing frameworks for for things. Hopefully, there's some exercises out of here. And maybe I'll even drop a uh I don't know, maybe I'll put something together and actually make it more actionable on that.

Um, I think a really big takeaway here is is becoming clear, you know, become very clear on who you are and what your values are. I think will really help you realign to a sense of identity and purpose upon getting out because before you can have confidence and clarity comes first, right? So, thank you my friend. I appreciate you. Have a

good one.