Navy SEAL Team 5 to $30M CEO: Joe Crandall on Leadership After War

Speaker labels and mis-heard names are corrected by hand; the words are as spoken, filler and all.

Preview clips

Joe: I think you just have to learn how to learn. Um yeah, sand and BUD/S is an experience that uh uh you can't we can't prepare for. We go into the briefing room and it's me as a lieutenant which is nothing at the Pentagon. Guy walks in and he goes SecDef on his way 5 minutes and I get the blue screen to death. All yelling and screaming at me and I through the crowd I see my admiral and he looks at me. I look at him and I go it'll be okay. And uh he goes okay. And he goes back to his notes.

PJ: You're diagnosed with cancer. 9/11 just happened and we want to serve our country, but you're not able to. And you're in the Pentagon with all of this top brass. And your response was, "It was fun."

Joe: Yeah.

Uh the delegate and elevate, right? Um we wouldn't be uh a $30 million company with 135 people if I didn't let go and and let people do their jobs, right?

Conversation

PJ: Hey, welcome to the Mastering the Military Transition Series of the Prize Podcast. My name is PJ and I'll be your host. The purpose of this podcast is to share the stories of those who have successfully transitioned out of the military so you can see the tips and tricks necessary to have a successful transition of your own. That way you don't have to stumble across some of the same things that myself and my team at Prize had to struggle with. At Prize, we believe in a world where all enjoy the freedom to grow. That's why we're developing the Prize app. If you'd like to learn more, please check out the prize.vet link in the show notes below.

— Thank you, sir. Yep.

PJ: I appreciate you joining us today.

Joe: Yep.

PJ: Hey, fam. Welcome to the next installation here of the Mastering the Military Transition series of the Prize Podcast. Today we have with us Joe Crandall. Uh he's a Navy veteran who served a total of about nine years. Began as an electronic technician.

Went to the Naval Academy after that. We'll dive into some of this here going forward. And then served as an assistant platoon commander and then the platoon commander of SEAL Team 5. Since getting out of the military, spent 10 years in medical healthcare sales and solutions. Uh and then worked your way up from sales representative at Pfizer to the director of Northeast and government solutions of GetWellNetwork.

— Yeah.

PJ: and then um spent the last 13 years here at Greencastle and um starting as the director of client engagement solutions and now the CEO and owner, which is pretty awesome. So, thank you for joining us today.

Joe: Thanks, PJ. I really appreciate that.

PJ: This is going to be a first here in that this you're the first person I think I've had on that I actually haven't had a previous conversation with. Okay.

Which I'm actually kind of excited with. We'll see where this goes. Could be a good one or it could go off the rails pretty quick. Always. Always. So, I'd love it if you could start us with, you know, giving us a little bit of your journey of getting into the military and then setting the landscape of what that was like and then we'll navigate from there.

Joe: Yeah. Well, then getting into the military was uh uh a little problematic just because uh I grew up in a very small town. My high school my my high school class had like 66 people in it.

PJ: Wow.

Joe: And uh I was not a good student. Uh in fact, I was a horrible student and uh had a little bit of trouble behind me. And so, uh, wanted to do something to get out of a small town. Uh, went down to Carson City, uh, and, uh, went to the recruiting station, walked in and, uh, first guy there was the the Air Force guy. Um, he was kind of dorky, so I just kind of kept on walking. The Army guy, uh, I think he was asleep at his desk, but I'm not sure.

Uh, the Marine was just way too intense. Yeah. And the Navy guy was just standing there going, "Hey, what's up?" And uh before I knew it, I signed up for eight years.

PJ: Wow. Just like that. Carson City, Nevada.

Joe: Yeah.

PJ: Okay. All right. So, is that where you're from?

Joe: I grew up uh in Incline Village, Nevada, which is a small town on the north shore of Lake Tahoe.

PJ: Oh, beautiful. Oh, Lake Tahoe. It's beautiful up there.

Funny note, my uh family and I went out there for the first time. I think it was like 3 years ago. And I took my daughter and my kids along like there was like a stream that was by the the campground that we were at. And we got attacked by mosquitoes. My daughter was like terrified after that. It was it was hilarious. Um, okay. So, I mean, you joined up. Did you initially go in like thinking I'm gonna be an electronic, you know, technician?

— No idea. How did that work?

Joe: To be honest, I didn't have any any clue. I just knew that if I didn't leave Incline that uh I'd still probably be there pumping gas or getting in trouble or something. So, um I flew across country to Orlando to go to boot camp uh back when they had it there. And uh after that uh just kind of uh found that the way they taught uh the the ratings I did really well in in the academic portion of uh uh the Navy training. And once I finally got to my unit at Little Creek, uh I was uh was repairing radars and all sorts of stuff and I just realized that I wanted to do something more than be enlisted. I that's when I applied to the Naval Academy.

PJ: Oh, got it. So how did that work? I'm not actually familiar with that.

Joe: Yeah. So, you go to your career counselor as an enlisted guy. I was an E4 and uh I walked in and I said, "Hey, I'd like to go to college." And he kind of laughed at me uh once he saw my transcripts and especially since I put the Naval Academy down as a as an option and ROTC. And uh after a few conversations, uh uh he was kind of like, "Don't don't even bother." And that kind of emboldened me to be like, "Well, screw you. I'm going to let I'm going to figure this out." And then u uh fast forward after I submitted my packages and all that kind of stuff.

Uh about 6 months later, I got a knock on the door from the the CO of the unit uh who was saying uh I got uh accepted to the prep school.

PJ: Wow.

Joe: And uh I didn't know what that was and I was like, "No, I don't want to do it. I want the Naval Academy or nothing." And uh the the commanding officer was just kind of like, "Oh, whatever." And some lieutenant uh pulled me aside and was like, "Joe." Well, he said, "Petty Officer Crandall, go to the go to the prep school." He must have been a NAPSter, too, cuz he was like, "You'll you'll really enjoy And so I went.

PJ: Okay. And how was the prep school?

Joe: It was like a fifth year of high school. You had uh essentially three types of people there. Uh you had football players that needed some academic help. You had some academics that needed uh a lot of physical help. And then you had uh all the fleet sailors. You had Marines. Uh you had Coast Guard and Navy guys.

PJ: Interesting. What did it do for you?

Joe: Uh well, you got a lot of friends when you go to the naval academy. uh even if you didn't know him at prep school, you you you recognized him and had an instant bond. Um showed me that I could do the academics. Uh yeah, I mean

PJ: so for you specifically, it was it helped you understand that you could do the academics. Was that something that you think you got out of that?

Joe: I could at least get a get a C in most of my classes.

PJ: Interesting. I'm curious, how do how do you think they went about doing that and like bringing that out of you?

Joe: I think you just have to learn how to learn. Um. Yes. And uh that's what I tell my kids all the time is it the most important thing I think coming out of high school and going into college is you have to know how you learn.

PJ: Right.

Joe: And as soon as you as soon as you nail that my my roommate from the prep school knew how to learn.

PJ: Yeah.

Joe: And uh it just came easy for him. He ended up being 10th in the class uh from the name of Wow. And uh

I was 10th from the bottom. So we kind of balanced things out. But uh you know what do they call the last person that graduates from the Naval Academy?

Yeah. Or but uh yeah so I think the biggest thing was is just learning how to uh to study and and how to be a good student because I I had never been exposed to any sort of u good academic rigor before that.

PJ: Totally understand. Totally understand. And do you think that your roommate helps kind of pull that out of you or uh

Joe: No. I don't I don't know. I don't think so. Uh cuz we never really talked about that. I mean he might have given me coaching tips on how to do this or that tactical stuff but I don't remember anything specific.

PJ: Okay. I mean I asked that I mean you've I'm sure heard you know like you're the average of the people you surround yourself with.

And there's a lot of truth to that right especially like rise you know rising tide raises all boats.

Um and I think that being around someone who has that sort of a maybe standard isn't the right term. Maybe it is, but like has that sort of knowhow can help bring that out out of some other people.

Joe: Yeah, I think so. Maybe uh just because if he was studying all maybe I'll study too,

— right? Right. Look at the books.

PJ: Yeah. Yeah. So, I had when I went to flight school, there was I I mean I was partying a lot. You know what I mean? Like if if you weren't on the on the the schedule, it's like what else are you going to do? And if honestly if it wasn't for one of my friends at that time

Yeah. who who challenged us lovingly but challenged us like, "Hey, you know, like let's get in the simulator and kind of made it fun." I don't know that I would have personally selected jets the way that I did.

And it was because of that guy. You know what I'm saying?

And I think that there's a lot of power in that.

Joe: So that's the power of friends. I mean that he could take you down the good path or the bad path.

PJ: That's right. That's right. Pick and choose your crowd. So you went to the Naval Academy after that. How was that experience?

Joe: It was uh academically very tough. I mean, you're taking 21 credits, you're marching, you're getting up early, you're you have to do a sport, all these kind of things. So, uh, even even the person that doesn't do well academically, I think, uh, comes out of there with a a new level of respect of like what it means to hustle, right? But, uh, uh, I started out as a because I was an electronics technician, I thought, well, this electronics stuff, I got it, so maybe I'll try electrical engineering.

And, uh, I think I had a a point something my first semester. And so I switched to to general engineering and um after that it was just um kind of just get through it, right? And uh I didn't really know what I wanted to do after uh the Naval Academy. So uh the s summer of my sophomore year uh I kind of did uh I guess you would say some soularching to figure out what I wanted to do.

PJ: And and what was the outcome of that?

Joe: Like it was a process of elimination. I had all the things that I I was eligible for and I just crossed off a whole bunch of things. I crossed off Marines. I crossed off pilot. I crossed off subs. And by the time it was done, I had SEALs, EOD, and something else. And so, um, I was like, "All right, let me figure out what the SEAL stuff's about." I hadn't exposed to him at Little Creek and I knew a few other NAPSters that wanted to be SEALs, but, uh, I didn't really know what it meant.

And so, um, at the Naval Academy, if you're not dedicated to becoming a SEAL, probably by the end of your sophomore year, you're you're not going to be even competitive. And so, I went away, uh, started working out. I was on, uh, I was on ships a lot. Uh, you know, you at the Naval Academy, you have three months off in the summer. Uh, two of them are training blocks and then one of them is a block of leave. Uh, except I had to do summer school, all of my training blocks.

Uh so uh I would go back to Naval Academy and just run and lift and swim and you know became pretty competitive for that that spot but I missed it.

PJ: Yeah. Okay. And and how I'm curious how didn't you come about like that that bit of a soularching crossing things off the list? What was your elimination process there? What did that look like?

Joe: No, you know it was just uh I don't know. I I couldn't fine. I probably have it written down. And I wrote down a lot of things back then, but it was probably more just uh I didn't want to be on a ship. I didn't want to fly. I didn't, you know, I didn't want definitely didn't want to be on a sub. So, it was just kind of like, you know what? I I can I can suck up 6 months of BUD/S.

I don't mind being cold and wet and sandy. And that's what ended up happening.

PJ: Being cold and wet and sandy.

Yeah. I've I've read a few books. Haven't obviously gone through Yeah. So So, all right. So, fast forwarding to BUD/S, like how how did you get there and then what was that experience like?

Joe: Yeah. So, the Naval Academy do a a process of interviews and physical tests and it's based on grades and stuff and uh they had 16 slots my year and I was number 17. And so, February I found out I was going to the USS Fort McHenry out of Sasebo, Japan. So, I just I didn't give up, but I was like, I got time, you know, before I could go and try to be a SEAL again, I would have to uh go get my surface warfare pen.

And so, it's about two two and a half years. So, I was like, all right, I'll start eating donuts again. and and not lifting and not running and and so from February of my senior year to May, which we graduated in May, uh I didn't do anything and I probably gained like 30 lbs. And uh 5 days before graduation, uh a Marine colonel uh walked into a room and he's like, "My mandle." And like, "Here, sir." He like looks at me and he kind of just was like, "You still want to be a SEAL?" And I was like, "Yes, sir." He goes, "The spot opened up." and he goes, "Thank goodness you have uh you'll come back to the Naval Academy uh for the all summer and then you'll go to BUD/S like in the fall." And I was like, "Okay." So I in my head I got 3 4 months to get back into shape, which was not a problem.

And um so I take my month off. Uh I go home or I come up to Jersey to hang out with my girlfriend and uh uh I go back to the naval academy when with all a huge auditorium with a bunch of enson and first lieutenants uh second lieutenants and they're like looking up my name and they can't find my name on this list that I'm supposed to be there. So every the whole thing clears out like hundred of people just it clears out I'm the last one and uh they walk up they go oh we found you.

And I'm like okay where am I going? He goes, "You're supposed to be in Coronado 3 days ago." And I'm like, "What do you mean?" He goes, "You have uh four more days of leave uh to get there before you get in trouble." So I packed everything up and I drove to Coronado.

PJ: Wow. Okay.

Joe: Completely out of shape.

PJ: Oh god.

Joe: And completely unprepared. Yeah. Just showed up and like here I am.

PJ: How did that go? Being out of shape and unprepared.

Joe: Well, if you've ever seen a Pillsbury Doughboy, that was kind of what I showed up as. And if you've ever met a a SEAL instructor, they are the most sadistic people on the planet. Even if they're the nicest people and they're in that role, they're they're sadistic. And so, um, I showed up to, uh, to BUD/S and they had an office and like it was kind of like a corridor and you had little cubicles and you ring the bell to get their attention and one of the petty officers puts his head out like, "What the hell's going on?" And he looks at me and he just goes, "Holy shit." And I was just like, "Oh, here we go." And I was in my whites, uh, all polished, ready to go.

And uh they all came out and they're like, "Yeah." And they're like, "And Cran, what are you doing here?" I'm like, "I'm here for, you know, for BUD/S." And they're like, "You're 4 weeks early." I'm like, "Typical military." So uh I was there alone for 4 weeks just getting my ass beat for 4 weeks by these guys. And uh and then the class started to show up and and and then uh by then it was, you know, old hat. I was like, "Yeah, I can do this."

PJ: Yeah. actually. So that was probably a blessing in disguise, wasn't it? Gathering early.

Joe: Yeah. Well that and uh uh so when by the time we classed up we had 269 people and uh because I was the first one I was the class leader uh not because of any other reason that I was the the most senior rating person. And so uh the next person from the Naval Academy that is a higher ranked than me in the class was supposed to take over. And they were just like yeah you got it. And I'm like all right super me like okay. And uh so by the time we actually started BUD/S um I was still the class leader and uh just kind of you know doing my thing.

PJ: Yeah. And you didn't have any trouble getting through like at that point like you you went straight through them. Mind you like my only experience of this like reading books really like General McRaven or or like um David Goggins like reading those sorts of stories. I am completely naive to this sort of experience. What was your experience there?

Joe: Uh BUD/S is an experience that uh uh you can't we can't prepare for. It's like when you kick her in the nuts, you know. Yeah. Are you going to are you going to get you are you going to practice getting kicked in the nuts or you just going to let it happen? And um and so I think being the class leader was a blessing also because I was so worried about the 269 people that I didn't really worry about myself. And then the whole class started to whittle down.

I think by the time we hit hell week, which was I think the third week for us, um we were down to in the hundreds and by the end of hell week, we're in the like I think in the 40s or 50s. So we we had tried it a lot of people very quickly. And so once once you get through hell week, it's kind of like that's your group. You might have some people roll out because of injuries or roll in because of they were injured in another class. Um but uh out of the 269, we only graduated originally uh 21 of those people.

PJ: Wow. That's incredible. Yeah.

And so out out of BUD/S, you then go to directly to SEAL Team 5 or how does that work?

Joe: You go uh you go to an officer uh like a month where a long training of uh officer stuff for SEALs and then you go to airborne school in uh Oh, cool. Uh Fort Benning and then you go

uh to a couple other classes and then you go to your team and you wait for uh a platoon to start up and then you join a platoon.

PJ: Right. Okay. And you were at SEAL Team 5 at that point. um showing up like who who was it that helped shape you from that point? Cuz I mean I understand the training portion of it like we get we get good amounts of I don't know shaping and molding from the training but I don't know at least it's it's my firm belief that when when you get to the union you start being in the practice that you get a mentor or something like that someone who really helps actually make you who you are.

Joe: Yeah. Well I we we covered this in several other uh interviews that I've done lately. I I know I've never latched on to a single individual mentor. It just it's not my style, but uh Jeff Williams was the platoon commander of my first platoon and uh he taught me a lot.

Um and so did the chief and uh Bruce Leman and uh the the u you know the other senior enlisted folks. if you as a SEAL, if you didn't listen and treat the senior enlisted folks, all the enlisted guys as equals, if if not more uh more important because of their knowledge, then you you got your ass beat pretty good. Um and so you learn to to pick and choose what to learn from different people and uh even even some even when you get into the SEALs, there's still stratification of bad SEALs and good SEALs. wasn't so sure.

So, but you can learn from the whole the whole gamut and uh uh so you just pick up bits and pieces. Like one of the things I picked up from Jeff was write everything down. So, for 25 years now, we've been writing everything down. I have notebooks all over of everything. You know, there's some gaps in it, but you want to know how to do a a SEAL platoon uh marching formation with, you know, you know, for certain types of contacts, I have it written down in my notebook somewhere. So he saw she had to learn.

Yeah. Well, also just uh he his big thing and I it saved my ass a few times is documentation.

Yeah. He who documents wins.

PJ: Interesting. Okay. And is that something you've carried through like

Joe: Oh, yeah. Yeah. Anytime there's a uh a negative situation, uh first thing I say is document everything.

PJ: Mhm. Got it. Okay. So, at this point, you know, you're you're in your career. You're full-blown. you're you're also young um and probably impressionable and and like walk me through a bit of your time as a SEAL and and then I'd love to dovetail into like the transition out cuz I know that you you got out not necessarily on your own terms.

Joe: Yeah.

Uh so you're you're at the mercy of of the Navy in a lot of ways and the Navy was actually going through a transition. The SEALs were going through a transition at that point in time. They were going from where at SEAL Team 5, you would have uh essentially four cycles. Two platoon are deployed, two platoon are getting ready to deploy, two platoon are um getting started, two platoon just came back. And uh when I was getting out, they were transitioning to the troop model where the whole u uh team would deploy at once.

And so there was a little bit of that going on. And then uh uh it was just um nothing was going on. I mean 9/11 hadn't happened. Um your operational career pretty much ended after your platoon commander. So uh I had already uh kind of said I've done my thing and uh wanted to get out and then uh we were deployed in 9/11 happened. Still nothing major happened with us because we were uh uh in I think at that time we were in Okinawa and uh you know they were still trying to figure out the response and that kind of stuff and they already had platoon in in that uh operating area and uh so we just kind of uh sat on our asses at Okinawa for a while and then um what was it February or January of uh uh 200 2002 I got diagnosed with colon cancer and that was kind of the end of it for me.

Even though I didn't get out until well it was 2001. It was uh late 2001. So even though I didn't get out for a little little bit of time I I came back to Bethesda at the time and uh got treatment and and just kind of worked at the Pentagon while I got uh while I recovered.

PJ: Right. And how was that for you like being diagnosed? Um, I I'm I'm assuming and you tell me if I'm wrong here, but like I'm assuming that like you're you're thinking your career is over at that point. Maybe you were already mentally prepared for that, but like walk me through that.

Joe: Well, once 9/11 happened, uh, you realize that it's the big show, right? You know, that that you're going to actually be able to go uh do your Warcraft that you've been practicing for five, six years.

And so I was getting prepared to potentially have a very tough conversation with my wife about saying it. M

and uh and then again I got diagnosed with cancer and they pretty much said yeah you can stay in but you'll push a desk and so like I'm going to push a desk I might as well make more money and um so that kind of did that but uh uh I was it was a lot of fun. I mean u I was working at the Pentagon. I was seeing a lot of the intel firsthand. Uh seeing just the amazing things uh uh all the different the different units were doing.

Uh, one of my favorite stories is it's it's my combat story I call it is uh the two leaders of the SEAL units of uh uh you know the DEVGRU and regular SEALs were coming in to brief President Bush and uh they handed me their laptops with their passwords and said everything he needs in here. I just make the presentation because we're they need they needed to uh uh brief the Secretary of Defense. And so I had like three days of just perusing laptops and uh I saw like just a lot of things that at the time you couldn't talk about and uh bronze, silver stars just it was just amazing some of the [expletive] these guys were doing.

And so I pulled together this the huge PowerPoint for the secretary of the N or the defense and uh you got to think this is 2002. So there's not I mean I I mean a 30meg file is huge, right? It's regression computer. So my my computer was crashing all the time and I finally got it to work and uh we go into the briefing room and it's me as a lieutenant which is nothing at the Pentagon. I mean I don't even I think they look at the janitor better and a room full of admirals and general so they're probably 17 18 like three stars and above.

I mean, it was just And then my SEAL admiral was sitting there, Admiral Olson. And uh guy walks in and he goes, "SecDef on his way. Five minutes." And I get the blue screen to death. And every single admiral in that room jumped up and was just freaking the can I swear? Freaking the [expletive] out. Except my admiral, right? So they're all coming over me. They're all yawning and screaming at me. And I through the crowd, I see my admiral and he looks at me. I look at him and I go, "It'll be okay." And uh he goes, "Okay." And he goes back to his notes and I'm I'm like, "Adminal, you know, I'm like, "Go down the hall and get me a left-handed smoke shifter.

I'm just telling him to just getting him out of my way. Just you I'm just telling him to go do stuff." And uh uh and so I'm trying to do everything that I'm supposed to be doing. 30 seconds he's on his way. I'm like, "Fuck, this is this is to to end my career at the Pentagon screwing it up for the entire Navy SEALs was was not going to be good." And he uh he walked in, PowerPoint came up, Admiral did the presentation. It was flawless.

And uh I after after it was over, they were going to do a debrief or something. So I closed my laptop up, went back to my office, and I'd actually taken over Admiral Olson's office to to get all this together. I'm in there, you know, just packing [expletive] up. And he comes in and uh he's like like, "Uh, Lieutenant Crandall." And I'm like, "Yeah, I'm getting out of your way, sir. Don't worry. Sorry, Bubba." and he like paused for a second and he handed me a a challenge coin or or you know that he'd probably hands out to only combat veterans and people that have done like true [expletive] and I was just like awesome, you know?

I mean, it was kind of like my moment of like all I I can remain calm when it when I got 19 admirals yelling at me, right? But yeah, it was just a funny little story. But

PJ: well, okay. So, backing up, you said something that for a second there threw me off guard and I want to I want to touch on it a little bit because you're diagnosed with cancer. 9/11 just happened and you're seeing like we all at this point we join because on some level we want to prove our merit. We want to go out and we want to serve our country but you're not able to. and you're in the Pentagon with all of this top brass and your response was, "It was fun."

Joe: Yeah.

PJ: Help me help me understand how that is the emotion that you pull out of that. I'm I'm not judging. I think it's I think it's cool. Help me understand that.

Joe: Well, you got you got to make things fun. Um I agree. But uh it's one of our core values here at Greencastle. Um, would I say it was fun in 2002? Probably not, right? It was I probably hated it there. I probably, you know, the the Pentagon is not a place for a lieutenant. I mean, it's just you're you are nobody, right? I could walk. I was invisible.

Uh, which was just fine. And uh the only thing to be honest, the only thing that really made me stand out was the trident on on my uniform,

— right?

Joe: And uh people would notice that before anything else. But, uh, yeah, I think going through BUD/S and some of the things we did as a platoon, uh, you you latch on to, you know, the dark humor and the the just, oh, this really sucks, but it it's it's fun because you're doing something that is unusual.

Yeah. You know what I mean? Um, as much as I it wasn't anything compared to what my uh counterparts were going through overseas, being in that room with all that stress was it was kind of like, all right, you know, I get a chance to shine here and uh, you know, do my do my part. And uh, you know, that's how I looked at it.

PJ: I I love that. I love that. I mean, I'm a big believer in we don't experience life, we experience the life we focus on,

right? And here you're you're showing us that you could have focused on just the shittiness of the situation of not getting to do what you've been trained to do of being in that you know environment with you know your bottom of the barrel here and your response is it was fun. I think that's awesome. I think that's awesome. I think that a lot of us could learn a lot from just that statement in itself.

Joe: Yeah.

PJ: Um, okay. So, thank you.

You you get to the point where now it's like I'm sure you you've gone through the whole like med board and all of that actually.

Joe: No,

no,

the they considered it uh cured once they did the surgery. Interesting. And uh so I had to have a lower anterior resection. They took out like 18 inches of my colon. And um once they once they figured uh you know the uh the cancer hadn't reoccurred in in a little shorter period of time they they they were like all right.

PJ: Okay. Yeah. So did you maintain like stay at the Pentagon then? Is like is that how you

Joe: Well, I was also getting uh I was injured in a parachuting accident a few years before. So I I was also getting both my ankles reconstructed. So, okay, I had um in one year I had colon cancer surgery and then in that that was in January and then May I had my left ankle reconstructed and then in August I had my righty right ankle reconstructed. So, not only I'm I'm a lieutenant walking around the Pentagon. Now I'm on crutches. So, and it was fun.

PJ: Um Okay. So, so how was it then that you you w up getting out? Like did you stay at the Pentagon then for a bit and and

Joe: Yeah. Yeah, I stayed at the Pentagon for probably about a year. Uh I was still attached to Team Five, but I was TAD to to the Pentagon and uh yeah, it was it was uh tough getting out just because um you're ripped out of the platoon quickly. Like we were it was Friday afternoon. Uh the doctor calls me and says, "Hey, listen Joe, uh we got a we got a uh you know, you got to come into the office and talk about your biopsy results." And I was like, "Listen, doc, I'm going to either," we were getting ready to go to Thailand at the time.

I'm like, "Am I going to Thailand or am I going home?" And he's like, "I can't tell you that." I'm like, "I don't have time for this." And he's like, "You're going home." So then, yeah, the platoon got on a plane to Thailand and I got on a plane to San Diego. And I probably didn't see or hear from them for, you know, probably a year. And u it just cuz then by then everything was kicking off and people were doing their own thing, right? platoon were getting cannibalized to fill combat ready platoon and and so uh you just there was no there's no ceremony. There was no hey let's get around and have a beer and that kind of stuff. So it was just you just a ghost at that point.

PJ: Yeah. Yeah. Okay. And then so you get out and you go back to Nevada.

Joe: No, no, we got we got out uh and then came back to uh South Jersey.

PJ: Okay. Cuz that's where your girlfriend I'm guessing. you now wife

Joe: Yo, now wife.

PJ: Okay, got it. Got it. So, how how was that process for you? Because you you sense something there too which I think is interesting and I can relate to this too of like you got out and you were a bit of a ghost cuz everyone was off doing their own thing. You know, you at this point are like he's hurt, he's gone like yeah, he's going home. How did that affect you?

Joe: Well, I don't know if immediately it affected me. Uh but I didn't maintain any contact with anybody uh even within the veteran community when I got out. until I didn't really start getting back into involved with uh with anything uh for probably 20 years.

PJ: Wow.

Joe: And u and so um yeah, I didn't I mean not until I really hit Greencastle did I start getting back involved with the veteran community and um I just always felt uh you know that uh things in the SEAL side moved on without me and right

I was kind of okay with that but it it was still you know I mean you see all your uh all your classmates and everything like just doing amazing things.

PJ: Right. Right.

Joe: Like the first three admirals out of my graduating Naval Academy class were SEALs. Wow. which was ne never happened before.

PJ: That's interesting.

And okay, so you you spent about 20 years. Would you would you say it was more and and you know, tell me if I'm if I'm pushing, but like

was it kind of sweeping it under the rug? Was it avoidance? Was it just like, you know,

Joe: I don't I was working on my career. I was just working on a career.

Yeah. And to be honest, I didn't I probably didn't even know that all that stuff existed. Uh just because I wasn't in a veteran centric organization. Uh got it.

I joined Pfizer. I was selling drugs in North Philly and uh you know that was that was the most mind-numbing job that I had um ever and I needed to get out of it. And so then I joined GetWellNetwork selling uh software.

PJ: Yeah.

Joe: Uh for a while uh and then u had a falling out with uh kind of the the leadership there uh with some of the new sales leadership they brought in. Uh got recruited to to work at GE. Did horrible there. or I actually got fired um just because it was such a transactional sale. I couldn't would be like, "Hey, here's what do I got to do? Do I got to call my manager to get you into this cup? This is this is your cup, you know, and I just couldn't that wasn't my style." And so, uh I ended up getting fired from there by a Marine, which was kind of funny.

He gave me a heads up. It was about 6 months before, uh you know, that he knew that he was going to have to get rid of me. And he's like, "Joe, eventually I'm going to have to fire you." And I'm like, "I know. I just I couldn't I couldn't figure out the formula. I was just I was like, "Yeah." And I I wasn't and I was trying to find my next thing and uh one day he called me up. He's like, "Uh, we need to meet in Newark." And I'm like, "Are you firing me?" He's like, "Yeah." I'm like, "Okay, yeah, cool." Yeah.

But uh and then I went back to GetWellNetwork uh to manage all the clients that I just sold uh for years. And then uh I got exposed to Greencastle uh while at GetWellNetwork. Um, I had sold a a system to Christiana Healthcare and Steve Hass, the CIO there, uh, was like a high-speed individual and he was, um, not happy with the way the implementation was going. So, he's like, "Don't worry about it, Joe. I'll I'll call in my military guys. They'll take care of it." I was like, "I'm military?

What are you talking about?" And so, uh, Greencastle came in, uh, fixed the implementation. It went off without a hitch. I was like, I got to get to know these guys. And so, uh, that was 2009. and then came up here, interviewed with them, and uh for three years we went back and forth. Uh interesting.

They didn't have a spot for me or I wasn't ready to jump ship. And so uh just every quarter or so I'd meet with one of the partners and have lunch and uh check in and finally it got to the point where it all made sense and I came over like you like you said earlier as the director of client engagement.

PJ: Yeah. Okay. And so let's let's back up. I mean, like we just kind of glossed over about 10 years there. Um, I think, you know, in in that time, you know, I think that there's there's probably some things that you took away from the military that probably really helped you. And then maybe there were some things even that didn't help you.

Joe: Yeah.

PJ: If as you reflect on that, like what would you say you could put in each of those categories?

Joe: Oh, things that obviously really help is just showing up and being like prepared. Like if your true movement's at noon, you're you're there. You're ready to go. It's not like, "Okay, now I got to go get my stuff and oh, can we stop and get snack?" No, you So, um, that was one of the things is once if if they say the dark day started at 9:00, um, you're there, you're ready to go and you do your prep work beforehand. So, that was huge. Um, thing that didn't really play well, uh, I was notorious just for, uh, being way early on at to everything.

It was just and that didn't help. Uh, no, because in the civilian community, people look at that like if you're that starts at 4:00 and you're there at 3:30, they're like, "What the what the hockey?" Yeah. And, uh, but it's funny because you go to a lot of these veteran events and it says it starts at 4:00 and the vast majority of people are showing up at 3:30. This is just ingrained in someone, you just show up really early and uh, so that that's still a hard habit to break. Um but um the other thing I think is just uh uh you learn so much about leadership and and managing people

uh specifically in BUD/S, but through the naval academy and um just being a platoon commander and that kind of stuff. And so

you just learn that um

uh you know how to how to manage uh situations and people and um but that's always a continuing process. I think I'm a I would say personally I'm a better leader and manager now than I ever was just because uh when you have a company of 135 veterans, they hold you to a much higher standard. I then uh cuz some of these guys served under some great military leaders and it's like how do you how do you live up to that um uh that level of expectation?

PJ: Well, that kind of goes back to like what we said at the beginning there, right? Like you are the average of who you surround yourself with. And also I mean I think that another really cool thing that at least personally I found in the entrepreneur journey right is like you don't do the journey for the end. It's not like because I want to accomplish a

it's who you become in the process. Um and and like that to me is much more powerful than it's like after just some goal.

Joe: Yeah.

PJ: So let's let's talk about Greencastle. I mean this this is a cool organization. And you obviously, like you said, you build fun into it. I've met a few of the people that work here, um, which helped me, you know, meet you

and

I've been impressed with, you know, the way that they have they've been about delivering value a lot of times for asking nothing in return. I'm curious, how did you help build that sort of a culture and what helped you what what helped develop that in you to to even want to build that sort of a culture?

Joe: Yeah, I think uh couple of key books that uh I read that re resonated with the way I wanted to to lead. Uh one is called The Go-Giver. Uh and that's just a it's a good fable. It's short. It's easy read. it was perfect for me um to be able to kind of comprehend the concept of just providing value without um looking for anything in in return. And uh there's a whole bunch of stuff to it, but that's kind of the the gist of it. And then um the other thing that was I think transformational for me personally was reading Traction by Gina Wickman.

PJ: Yeah, Gino Wickman.

Joe: And when I read it, it was just kind of like yeah, this makes sense. Um, but the the thing that really really made me uh change a lot of the ways that I did stuff was uh the delegate and elevate, right? Um, we wouldn't be uh a $30 million company with 135 people if I didn't let go and and let people do their jobs, right? Um, and so that's what happens I think with lifestyle businesses is that uh the the owner doesn't want to let go of certain things and that's fine but they'll never uh you know get them above a certain level and again it's a lifestyle business so they're happy with it but uh once you get comfortable uh creating new leaders and I think personally that's what I've kind of morphed Greencastle into is is are we doing great projects for big companies?

Yeah. But also we're creating leaders and um by creating new leaders uh I I would be robbing them of valuable valuable experience if I continued to do it myself.

PJ: Absolutely.

Joe: And um some somewhere in my career either somebody was generous enough to let me try something new or they were incompetent and I did something anyways and I learned and if I didn't allow that to happen here we would still be uh 50 people 25 people doing some good stuff but just not we would have high attrition. I mean we haven't out of the last year uh we've only had four months where we've lost somebody. Wow. So, we've had eight months of zero attrition. So, it's amazing. And that that's I think that's attributable to uh uh you know, good pay, good job, but also just people feeling valued.

PJ: Yeah. No, I get that. And you know, it's it's funny that that you just brought that up that we've actually touched on this in a lot of our different episodes of like a the mark of a leader is creating more leaders. And I I love that you're you're embodying that in this company. Oh, yeah. It's really cool. So in this in this company and you can correct me on this one, but I think I think it's entirely veterans, right?

Joe: Yeah, Greencastle is 100% veteran.

PJ: So what is it about veterans that you think is so valuable that that that is something you've stayed so true to?

Joe: The thing that I I I think it's nothing they're going to see in their work with um major utilities, Exelon, PECO, uh PPL is going to rattle them more than anything they saw in the the milit.

PJ: Sure. Right. So,

Joe: yeah.

And out of I couldn't tell you the exact number, but I'm sure the vast majority of them are all combat veterans. And uh we always it's a kind of a joke, but it's true. Nobody's going to die,

you know. So, let's just take it down a notch. It's not It's not that serious. And but to our clients, it is very serious.

Yeah. Because this might be the most uh chaotic thing they've ever dealt with where uh I I can just I mean just going through BUD/S, it was like Monday morning was like chaos central. It's like you show up and it would be like, "All right, what am I getting my ass beat for today?"

PJ: Yeah.

Joe: Oh, so and so's on the roof of the barracks. Okay, great. How many push-ups do I You know, it was just you just dealt with the chaos and you were very I got very comfortable just walking into a a situation with with no prior knowledge and just being like, "Oh, I I can figure this out." No, I think that's uh the vast majority of veterans is they're they're put into those situations at different levels. Um and uh that's kind of what we do here is it's like, "Hey, you've been assigned to the, you know, such and such project." They get in there and it's a [expletive] show. Yeah. It's a dumpster fire and they just they take a deep breath and they go, "Okay." And they just start sorting it out.

PJ: Yeah.

Joe: And that's what the clients need,

right?

PJ: Yes. So, I think that if I were to boil that down to I guess maybe terms that at least I've heard is like one crisis management. I think that veterans are great at crisis management. And then the other one is resourcefulness.

Yeah. I think that something that I've seen since I've been out, the people that are most successful that I've seen again here are the ones who can remain resourceful and a lot of that's a resourceful state.

Yeah. Which is like being calm in the storm.

Joe: Yeah.

PJ: But the ones who are resourceful are the ones ultimately who prevail. Um, so as as now the owner of of a consulting firm, what do you see as being the most successful attributes um that that help when you come into a dumpster fire?

Joe: Yeah. Uh it's kind of like triage. Uh I can imagine like when a combat medic rolls up to a situation, uh first thing is like stop the bleeding. Right.

Right. And so uh that's exactly you know the the most important thing is let's just stop the stop the problem. And uh the the other thing is is I we we uh talk about creating systems for for improvement. So think of just let's just say running Greencastle for a while there was a roller coaster. We had our highs and our lows and one of the goals that I had set out is let's flatten that roller coaster. It doesn't need to be this emotional roller coaster because the only reason why uh we were seeing those roller coaster rides was because certain individuals were creating a crisis so they could sweep in and and solve it.

So they were uh what I would call, you know, the professional uh arsonist and firefighter combo. And uh as soon as we realized that and made some changes, it started to to flatten out because there's no reason for us to have a conversation on Saturday morning.

I mean, no reason. Right. Right. unless one of the employees uh potentially or their family is involved in something tragic, right? And that's happened where we've had those calls, but nothing should should be discussed. Not nothing, very little should be discussed after hours. It's like we we're not in we're not in a a DoD contracting entity where we got to send people to ships to go do whatever, you know? So it's like let's level out that by creating systems, by creating expectations, behaviors, um all sorts of things.

And um famously, uh within Greencastle, I have this concept called the watch, which is you know, take a a fancy watch and you pull the back off and you have all these gears and everything.

PJ: Yeah.

Joe: And uh over the last 6 years, we've built that that watch out and we'll continue to build it out. But my job as a CEO is to sit there and look at all the gears and do nothing if it's working. Because if I've created the right systems, the right expectations, the right goals, held people accountable, put the right people in the right job, all it should let them go, right? And when it starts to the gear starts to not work right or starts to get gummed up, that's when we you start to enact, all right, what do we got to do different? Is it is it a person problem? Is it a system problem? Is it a process problem? Is it a people problem? So,

PJ: yeah. Okay. Okay. And I've seen that that big diagram that you all have um in the back over there for

Joe: Yeah. Yeah. That's our that's our process for helping clients go through that process.

PJ: That's cool. Wait, did you come up with that yourself or was that something

Joe: No, no, that's been around uh probably I I'd have to imagine since the '9s and Greencastle started. It's just the thoughtful combination of project management, change management, and process improvement, right? Each one is a discipline in itself, but you can't really do a a large complex project without change management or process improvement. And by

Yeah. And so uh we just we took it and over the years we've massaged in massaged it into uh what we call the implementation management methodology.

PJ: That's cool. That's cool. I want to back up a little bit here. Um just in the interest of time there's a couple things I want to cover. you know, one I I I get that like and I again I love I love your mind mindset on it, but in the transition period, I think that there's something when we're going through it that we think is the most important thing at that time, what was that one thing for you as you were going through the transition?

Joe: So long ago. Um, and for me it was uh I was I was mentally focused and on like my physical well-being just because I I was again on crutches and sure cancer surgery and was getting out of the military that kind of stuff. So for me it was just find a job, any job. That's why I took the job at Pfizer. I mean I had a lot of fun at Pfizer. was uh it paid well and uh a lot of great people but it it just was you're a glorified UPS person

and uh but built up you know it I think I actually I I'll give Pfizer a ton of credit for creating uh the fundamentals of selling uh that they did because it was all relationship based selling and it was all about u providing value and uh and uh I mean just with with that territory we took it from the bottom to top in in two years, I think it was. And so it was just one of those things that um uh you just when you're getting out, everybody has a different priority.

My biggest thing is is when I talk to veterans now getting out, they have a lot of tools. If you can use the SkillBridge program, use it. Um but the the biggest decision I think uh that I I I try to help veterans realize is are you looking for a job or you looking for a career?

Yeah. Because a job is you show up nine to five. You have no real responsibilities. You're going to get a good paycheck and you're just gonna kind of be there. A career is you're going to have to hustle and you're going to have to stay late. You're going to have to show up to the office. You're going to have to do all these things that are going to get you noticed by leadership and get you more responsibility and then you're going to move up the ladder.

And I think some people think that if you just do a job, you can do that. And you got I don't think you can live in both worlds. You got to either, hey, I'm just here to to get a paycheck. I'm going to be your best B player on the planet. I'll show up early. I'll show up on time. Blah blah blah. But I'm not looking to be the CEO. And that's there's that's awesome if a person is so self-aware that they could do that. And then the the other side is is you get the, you know, the guys and gals that are willing to uh to stay two hours later to to get something done. And and you you need those people as well.

PJ: Yeah. All right. You were touching on a career versus a job.

Joe: Yeah.

PJ: And I totally resonate with this. I think that something that's very interesting that when people get out is is that they're usually focused on on just that I need, like you said, I need something to bills.

Joe: Yeah.

PJ: But the hard thing is is you're trying to replace a way of being with a job.

And I think the funniest metaphor I've ever heard on this is like no one gets a 7-Eleven tattoo, right? You know what I mean? Some somebody probably does, but um but you get the point.

Joe: Yeah. No, I think you lose a lot of sense of purpose when you get out of the military. So, uh that's where I think the non not not forprofits can help. It's like you can you can get that sense of service or serving something bigger than yourself

by uh helping a not for profofitis, but um

you're not going to the vast majority of people veterans aren't going to get it through their job,

PJ: right? Yes. I I completely agree. So looking back now, you know, what 20 20 years now um or more since you got out, what what do you think actually was the most important thing for you to have maybe taken care of? Maybe you took care of it and didn't even think about it, but as you reflect, what was actually the most important thing um to take care of on your transition?

Joe: That's a tough question because uh the financial is always a huge thing. Sure. The inner dynamics between you and your wife and all that kind of stuff. I would say uh the for me it's uh finding that path of success, right? It took me 20 years to get to Greencastle to to buy it. Could I have done it when I was 33? No. I had to go through that process and I had to I had to to get fired from GE. I had to do these other things and um so I think it's uh two things. I think uh veterans, anybody really has to take charge of the career

cuz when you're in the military they tell you, okay, you're going to go here, you're going to go there. You have some say are you going to choose Okinawa or San Diego, but you know what your next job's going to be and they're going to tell you what it is. And so that's the thing here in the outside the military is nobody's doing that.

Yeah. And uh there's not a career path that you can follow and say, you know, I I'm here and I want to move up. It's it's you have to be very opportunistic in a good way. Um like I believe luck is is the combination of being prepared for it but also being in the right place, right? So think of return to work, right? Um, it could be said that some people are being promoted because they're lucky. Sure, it's probably because they set the conditions for that luck to be in the office around leadership or they're doing um certain things that get themselves noticed by leadership. the person that sits at home and doesn't take the effort to to reach out and to to set up time with leadership or to to engage anybody and just does their job, that's that's okay, but you have to realize that those opportunities you're not even being exposed to them because of your actions. And so, um,

so yeah, it's there's a lot of luck, but it's also, uh, you you as an individual, you play, uh, a huge part in creating that luck.

PJ: I completely agree. So, someone's getting out right now. What What would be the one bit of advice that you would give them and or their family, loved ones? Yeah. You know, like as they're getting out to help them be successful.

Joe: Uh take advantage of the SkillBridge program if you can. That's uh one of the more successful programs out there. But, uh I think again just do you want a job or do you want a career? Um, and uh, because that'll be the dynamic with your wife and your family is if it's a job, you'll be at the softball games and the the birthday parties and, you know, that kind of stuff. If if you're shooting for a career, you're going to miss some of those because that's just that's the hustle that's required to grow a successful career.

Um, and then, uh, I'd say the other thing is is be be honest and truthful with yourself about what you can actually do when you get out of the military. A lot of a lot of senior officers or even uh, senior enlisted are like, "Oh, I want to be the CEO or COO of a company." And it's like the you might have managed materials and people and that kind of stuff, but the biggest difference between anything you've done in the military and the civilian world is if you join a for-profit company, you got to make money.

PJ: Yeah.

Joe: And you have no skill set in that. Now, can you transfer your skill set to do that? Yes. But 20-year career in the military, you've never sold anything. M you've never had to raise money for a for an organization. And so I also tell transitioning veterans that as well is I say I say listen listen find out how the company you're joining makes money and help them do more of that and you become indispensable.

PJ: Oh interesting.

Joe: And because that's people join Greencastle and it's it's about deep relationships and delivering high quality products to the client but it's also how do how do we make money? Well, we make money by more projects and you want a little bit of longevity. You want a little bit of job security. Help us do that and everybody will be successful.

PJ: I love how simple you made that too. So, it sounds to me like one being clear on your values.

Joe: Yeah.

PJ: Is a great place to start because then you can know if you want a job or a career.

Joe: Well, and also important to you. Uh you'll know what kind of company you want to join.

PJ: Yeah. Oh my god. Yes.

Joe: You know, I mean, there's companies out there that are that are borderline unethical. And it's if you're okay with that, it's okay then. Go do that. But if you start to see that at your job, don't tolerate it.

PJ: Yeah.

Joe: You'll have to jump ship and do something else.

PJ: Absolutely.

Joe: And you got to be comfortable with that.

PJ: Thank you.

So, uh, two more things. One, what's your favorite book

right now?

Joe: I'd say uh favorite book is probably uh The Go-Giver or uh uh I'm going to probably I think it's Getting Naked by Patrick Lencioni. Oh yeah. Yeah. I I I think it's getting naked, but be careful Googling that one. Um but it's it's a nice fable on the difference between a large consulting firm and a small consulting firm. And it resonates really well with Greencastle.

PJ: Yeah, I' I've heard of that one. Um cool. And then do you have a favorite podcast?

Joe: I really uh I should say shots from the Winchester. Um but uh I I I like the snippets of all of them. Again, I don't all of them. I I don't look forward to any particular um uh podcast coming out on a particular schedule. I just there's they all have snippets of good information.

Yeah. Not all of them, but I mean, not all. Typical like Joe Rogan and uh you know, there's a couple others that I I I don't even know the names of, but I know they they uh you know, it comes across my feed.

PJ: Yeah. Well, we'll drop all of that in the show notes.

Joe: Um and the Prize is awesome. I I I watched the Prize all seven episodes so far.

PJ: Right. Right. I'm sure you have.

Yeah. Um thank you for coming on. I really appreciate your time. Thank you all for stopping by and joining us today. As always, you know the drill. Please like and subscribe. If you have any sort of comments, feedback, I know we've changed up a lot. You know, cameras, people we've had on questions we've asked. We're doing that because of the feedback that we've gotten from all of you. So, please continue to do that. And, you know, we'll put links to actually, how can people get a hold of you?

Joe: Uh, they can go to greencastleconsulting.com. We have a page there, leadership, and I think all my contact information is there. You can always reach out via LinkedIn, but that's a little bit more hit and miss.

PJ: Yeah, that's dicey.

Joe: I've been uh ignoring that a lot more lately.

PJ: I completely understand that. Well, cool. Thank you all for stopping by.