Medically Retired, She Made It to Columbia One Class at a Time

Speaker labels and mis-heard names are corrected by hand; the words are as spoken, filler and all.

Preview clips

Jen: I thought my transition was going to be smooth at first, and it just kept on being challenge after challenge after challenge. So, growing up was really weird for me because we were very poor. There was a lot of things that we went without, even electricity in the winter. And in New York City, it was cold. I did my ASVAB. I did all of this, and I had a pretty good ASVAB score, so I got a lot of job opportunities. And then I kept telling the recruiter, no, I want to be infantry. And then they're like, women are not allowed to be infantry. I was like, what? I was like, I want something rugged.

That was the other thing. I said, I don't want a desk job. I want something rugged where I have to be physically using my body. I remember I go to the Soldier of the Month board right before, and I go with my uniform all jacked up. I didn't polish my boots at all. My awards were lopsided. The whole thing was a hot mess. You really have to, like, learn that with leadership, you're going to have good leaders that you're going to learn so much from, and you're going to grow from them, but you're also going to have horrible leaders and bad leaders that you also have to learn from them.

PJ: Yes, absolutely.

Jen: We want something in our lives, we have to feed it. Positive, negative, whatever it is, we have to feed it. I had five surgeries in service.

PJ: Oh, my God.

Jen: To the same knee.

PJ: Yeah.

Jen: And so, then after the fifth one, and I was not recovering, because I would. I would attempt to run. I was doing PT. I did everything that they asked me to do, but it just wasn't working. And so, after the fifth one, they're like, this isn't an option for you anymore. And, you know, he was like, you're gone. We have to medically separate you.

PJ: You were initially very physically oriented. At this time, though, getting out due to something physical, right, that probably limited who you could be physically, how did that affect your psyche?

Jen: Oh, it was bad. It was bad. I have military sexual trauma, right? And then part of that, I used to carry a knife because of a protective factor.

PJ: I think a point you're making is, like, transition doesn't really end.

Jen: Yeah. It's kind of like a, it's something that, it's really just life. My kid, and I found my I Love Me book, and I was like, oh, cool. And I was like, I don't want to see it. And I put it away, and my kid brought it out, and she was like, Mom, put this on your office. Put this on the wall in your office. She's like, remember who the heck you were, like, what you did.

PJ: If you had, like, one piece of, you know, guidance, advice, or whatever that you would want to offer someone who's transitioning out of the military, maybe they're going through something medical, what would that be?

Conversation

PJ: Hey, friends! Welcome to another episode of the Mastering the Military Transition series of the Prize Podcast. Try saying that three times fast. Today, we have with us Jen Aleman. Thank you for coming on the show. I do appreciate you. Jen is an Army veteran. She has gone through quite a lot in her journey, which I am excited to talk about. She was in the networking side of things in the Army and then got out and has been at places like Etsy. She's been in, like, a law firm, and now she's helping out veterans and is also in the psychology field, which is really, really cool. So, Jen, if you don't mind, as we kick all of this off, I would love to hear from you, just starting off, like, who Jen was before you went to the military.

Jen: Well, first off, thank you again for having me here.

PJ: Yeah.

Jen: So, yeah. So, Jen before the military. I grew up in Brooklyn, New York. I'm a daughter to immigrant family from Honduras and have four older brothers. So, yeah. So, growing up was really weird for me because we were very poor. There was a lot of things that we went without, even electricity in the winter. And in New York City, it was cold. So, yeah. So, there was a lot of difficulties to overcome as my childhood. A big saving grace for me, though, was playing sports, playing softball.

PJ: Oh, nice.

Jen: So, and that gave me a lot of structure, too. Like, I feel like early on, it taught me a little bit about discipline, because, you know, it was a distraction away from all the hardship that I had. So, yeah, softball. And then I did some acting, too, when I was in school a little bit.

PJ: Oh, yeah?

Jen: Yeah. I know, long time ago. But it was fun. Those were the positive distractors from a really hardship, a really tumultuous childhood. Again, Brooklyn in the late 80s to early 90s was really rough. There was a lot of stabbings and a lot of just crime over all drugs, etc. So, it wasn't not even just my family's situation. It was literally everything around us.

PJ: Yeah.

Jen: So, that was how I kind of grew up, like, really rough, tough. I was a big tomboy, nothing like what you see today. Growing up before the brothers really made me tough, you know?

PJ: Absolutely.

Jen: And then playing sports, like I said. So, yeah, so I was a big tomboy, and, you know, I wanted to be a cop or do something injustice-related, because I was very justice-inclined at a young age.

PJ: What do you think led to that, actually?

Jen: I think a lot of it has to do with how I grew up and what I saw growing up. As the youngest and as the only girl, I spent a lot of time alone, a lot of time alone. And my parents divorced or separated roughly when I was five or six. And before that, my earliest memory is around three years old. It wasn't a good memory, but it was some memories. And so, I remember seeing my father, unfortunately, beat up on my mother, beat up on my brothers, and things like that. And so, from a young age, I remember saying to my parents, to everyone, I said I was going to be a cop to arrest my father.

PJ: Yeah.

Jen: So, that whole justice thing really early on just came about and has stuck with me ever since.

PJ: Yeah. Okay. Thank you for that. I bring that up because we noticed that thread last time. So, thank you for diving into that a little bit. So, how did you get into the military? Like, what was your transition into the military? What did you even decide?

Jen: Yeah. Oh, man. So, high school was tough. I'm in New York. 9-11 happens. So, obviously, everyone's like, we're going to join. We're going to join. I wasn't old enough yet. So, I still had to wait like two years because that was 01. I graduated 03. And I remember, like I said, I always had that inkling for justice, for military and whatnot. And I remember when I was a little bit younger, too, I saw my first military people walking down Fifth Avenue in Brooklyn, and I was like, ooh, who's that? Like, they look so proper and so, like, poised and so, like, they're going to take care of people type of thing.

And I was like, I want that. And then fast forward, like I said, to 9-11. My brother ended up joining, and when I went to his graduation, he's infantry, so when I went to his graduation at Fort Benning, and you saw the whole display of military, what we see in the movies and whatnot, but it wasn't in the movies because there was so much discipline, so much, again, that poise, that cleanness to them. Yeah, they were infantry doing their craziness, but they were still, like, so... I don't know. It was maybe just how I envisioned them.

PJ: Put together, yeah.

Jen: Put together.

PJ: Yeah, that was a great word.

Jen: And so, I saw it all, and I was like, I want this in my life, you know? And talked with my brother a little bit throughout the process, and I remember recruiters came to the schools. They were like... I was in high school. They came to the schools, and I didn't know what I was going to do. My mom kept on saying, education, education, education. There was no finances for education. I didn't know how to do any financial aid or application, any of that. Again, first generation, none of that was, all of that was foreign territory to me. So, I was like, education didn't really call to me at that point.

And so, I remember I spoke to the recruiters, and I was like, let's do this. And I gave them my information and all that fun stuff, but then crickets for a while, months. And then I was like, what happened? Like, I don't get this.

PJ: Yeah, that's very unlike recruiters.

Jen: Yeah, and I'm like, why? I'm like, I was all in. And this was like the beginning of my senior year. And then it happens again. And like, all of a sudden, like six, seven months later, I finally get the call. I'm at home, get the call. And I answer, and I'm talking to them. And I'm like, why? Why did it take you guys so long to call me? I'm like, yes, I'm still interested. Let's do this. And funny enough, one of my eldest brother, he was like, apparently they did call a few days later, but he told them flat out, my sister's not joining the military. He was so protective on that aspect, like, she's not joining the military.

So, they shied off for a little bit. But yeah, so I got the call, made plans to meet them the next day or within that week, and went from there, you know, and signed up. I delayed entry program. I was 17. I was still young. So I had to get my mother's permission, and that was a whole ordeal. That was tough, you know? Again, Latina, first gen here, and with that first gen being here, we're very traditional in aspects of the woman stays in her role. But me playing sports, me doing everything I did as a kid was always defiant of that role. So, I just remember, I just kept talking to her, and I kept on explaining to her, like, I was sitting trying to do applications, but it was all gibberish to me.

I didn't know what to do. And I just told her, I was like, this is what I want to do. And I think because my brother was in at that point, too, like, freshly in,

PJ: she was like, okay.

Jen: Yeah, she just did it. Yeah, but it did take a little bit to get her on board with it, and then she finally did. So, and then that was it. And then I signed up, and yeah.

PJ: All right. So, walk me into, like, you now, did you go when you were 17?

Jen: So, no, that's another story. So, I was supposed to, because I was supposed to go right after graduation. I was still going to be 17, because my birthday is in September. So, I didn't turn 18 until September.

PJ: I know, in a few days.

Jen: It's September.

PJ: I know. Happy birthday.

Jen: Thank you. I appreciate it. Yeah, in a few days.

PJ: 41, what, what?

Jen: Yeah.

PJ: Okay, so you stayed in that, into the fall, you're saying, right?

Jen: Yeah.

PJ: And then you went in. So, walk me through that a little bit. Did you know what you wanted to do when you went into the military?

Jen: Oh, man. So, yes. So, yes. So, again, I wanted to be a police officer, right? And then I saw my brother, infantry, and then I found out, like, they protect everyone around the world type of thing, right? That was what I was told.

PJ: Mm-hmm.

Jen: So, I was like, I want to be infantry. So, I remember going to the recruiter. I did my ASVAB. I did all of this, and I had a pretty good ASVAB score. So, like, I got a lot of job opportunities. And then I kept telling the recruiter, no, I want to be infantry. And then, to my surprise, the heartbreak. They're like, women are not allowed to be infantry. I was like, what? So, it was very disappointing for me, and I think that was the first time, like, that first real reality check for me is like, okay, women are not allowed to do everything they want to do. So, it was a reality check for me, for sure.

And then...

PJ: Actually, for someone who is so inclined toward justice, how did that hit you?

Jen: Oh, I was mad. I was angry. I was so angry. And I remember even at one point, I was like, then I'm not signing in. I was like, why should I do this if I can't do the job? And I was so angry. And I remember I kept saying, I'm like, what are you? I was like, really? How can I not? And the crazy thing is, because I knew I wanted to join the military, I was, like, my classes in high school, I was taking weight training. I was taking all, like, yeah. So, like, I was getting ready, you know? And I always played sports. So, running was nothing for me. So, yeah. So, was preparing all that. And so, like, again, reality check.

And then so, fine. When I spoke to my brother, I even waited. I was like, I'm going to wait to talk to my brother. He's in Korea right now. And I know he's going to call me. And so, like, I waited. I spoke to my brother, and I was like, they're telling me there's no women in infantry. And he's like, no, that's true. He's like, you can't. They're like, sorry. And I was like, it's here. No, but then I was like, okay. And then I was like, fine, next best thing. I wanted to be a police officer. So, I was like, so how about an MP? And that was my option. And then they're like, well, do you have a license?

And I'm like, I'm a Brooklyn kid, barely 70. Like, in New York City, no, I don't have a license, a driver's license. So, that was another slap to reality of, like, nope, you can't do that either. So, yeah. So, that was that. And then I was, like, fine. At this point, I was, like, so angry, so, like, almost defeated. But then I was, like, fine, just get me whatever's going to get me in real army, like, the quickest. So, that's when, like, they're, like, oh, what about this job? And I was, like, I want something rugged. That was the other thing. I said, I don't want a desk job. I want something rugged where I have to be like physically using my body.

And that's when they're like, oh, what about a 31 Lima, a cable systems installer, a maintainer? And I was like, well, tell me about it. And they're like, well, it's in the signal core. They're like, you're carrying all these like 140, 135 pound cable reels. You're going to always be out. You're going to be digging trenches. So like everything that probably most people don't want, I was like, yes, let's do this. I know. So silly. So silly. But, I mean, it turned out to be a blessing, too, in disguise, because I was going after that rugged aspect. But little did I know that the ruggedness was because of the technical aspect, right?

Like, we were there to support communications, the signal flow, all of that. So, it ended up turning really well for me afterwards to a point that probably infantry and MP wouldn't have given me the opportunities that later formed my life later on. But I remember I was so adamant about it being rough and tough and not like everyone else. It was so silly. But that was where I was at. I was young. And again, I grew up with four brothers, a very tomboy, very physical person. So, that was what I wanted.

PJ: No, I don't think that's uncommon at all. And actually, I think what you're describing here is actually something I think a lot of us even face when we get out of the military of like, I don't know what I'm going to do. I'm going to try something. And then we realize there's aspects of it that we like and there's others. So, help me, like, walk me through that arc a little bit, right? Like, you didn't get what you wanted, and the justice side of you is like, what the F? But the nurturing side of you is like, you know, I'm still going to go out and help people, so I'm still going to join.

And you're going into a technical field, which you joined because you wanted to try yourself physically, which is that, do you think, because of having four brothers?

Jen: Oh, again, yeah, I 100% think it's because of that. Again, like I was playing sports. I was playing softball, soccer. I was very competitive as a young person, too. So that always was like, I was like, I want to be better than the guy. It wasn't even about the women. It was more about the guys. And that definitely is from, like, having four older brothers.

PJ: Sure. Okay. So, I mean, so you went in for one reason. And when did that start to change?

Jen: So, yeah.

PJ: Or how did that work out?

Jen: Oh, so it actually happened pretty early in my military career. So, I was in basic. And I don't think I told you this, but I was in basic. And we had someone go AWOL, because I went in November. So, December, they gave a break, the Exodus, the Christmas Exodus break. Like, someone went AWOL. It was another Latina. She was from California, and she was a beast. So, her and I were, like, really beasts together. And when I say beasts, like, physically, we were doing the thing. So, she was also a beast. And I remember, finally, now we were about to graduate basic. And she came back. I don't know if they found it.

I don't know the ins and outs of it. Regardless, she came back. And when she came back, she wasn't in my platoon, but there was a Latino drill sergeant. And he was the one that, like, you and you, to her and to me, come into my office. And I was like, and, you know, and basically when a drill sergeant says come into your office, you know you're in trouble. So, of course, you know, the desks, and he's, like, front-leaning rest position. And then so, like, all right, here we go. Get down. And he's, like, elevated. And so we had to put our feet on the desk, and we're like, all right. So something happened really bad.

And obviously, with her going AWOL, I knew it was going to be rough. But I was like, what did I do? And I remember him just chewing, chewing, and saying what he had to say, all this stuff. But the biggest thing that I remember was like, you guys are Latina, and you're women. He's like, you have to show up even more than everyone else does. And so, that, like, really stuck to me, and I was like, well, then, again, my mindset at that point, I was like, still aggressive, still, yeah, I'm going to keep doing everything in that capacity. So, I was, like, running in A group and all this stuff. So, I was a runner, you know?

So, and it was a lot of relief for me running, too, back then. But, so that was basic. But yeah, so AIT comes, and I'm starting to get attention. They're like, you're going to be in this leadership role. They're like, you have potential. And me, I was timid, all right? I have four older brothers. I could barely get a word in at the house. So, I was like, me? Leadership potential? And I'm like, this little thing. I was like, oh. But kept on going, right? So, fast forward, real army, I get sent to Korea. I wanted to go to Korea, actually. My brother was in Korea, so I was like, I want to see if I can hang out with him while we're both there.

Yeah. So, we had about a four-month overlap, but I got to Korea, and immediately, they're like, basically, they didn't say straight out, you're going to be a board soldier. They're like, start getting prepared, though, because you're going to go to the next board, a Soldier of the Month board. And from there, that was probably the largest catalyst to the rest of my career was preparing myself for the board and doing all that board preparations and this, that, and the third. And the reason I say that is because that forced me to learn so much about Army regulation, about UCMJ. It forced me to learn so much about the Army and how it runs and what's important, like drill and ceremony, this, that.

So, all these different subjects, it kind of forced me. The only thing that I will say that I didn't like, like I said, I came in to be rough, tough, and rugged. So, typically, when you're a board soldier, they do sometimes put you behind the desk. They're like, no, you got to study. Your biggest thing is studying because you have to represent the company, you know, you have to keep going and all this stuff. Again, that competitive thing. So, you know, say less to me, I'm going to be competitive, right? So, at first, I was like, yeah, I'm going to learn this. And it was fine. And then it was like, I won my first and second board.

And then I remember they had another female. She was leaving. She was PCSing. And she was the board child before that. And her and I had a real heart-to-heart discussion right before she left. Yeah. And then she said, you know, and she's the one that told me, she's like, listen, this is good and all. She's like, but you're always going to basically be a Muppet to these guys. And, you know, they're going to tell you to do this, do that, and you're always just that Muppet. And I was like, huh. And, like, just getting it from her experience, because she did go, like, really high, like, to Soldier of the Year and all this stuff.

So, she got, she went through it. And then she even said it to me, because I, you know, again, we spoke about it, we were the same MOS, and I was like, I just want to do the physical stuff. And she's like, that's what I wanted. And she's like, and here I am, like, a year, two years later, just that's all she did. So I was like, I didn't want that to be me. So I remember, like, yeah, I did it for a few months. And then I remember fast forward to like, when, you know, after I got it promoted, and, you know, promotion, promotion, promotion, and then it was time to go to the to the promotion board to get E5.

And I was like, at the same time, simultaneously, they still had me doing this board soldier stuff. And I was so fed up. I was so fed up because I wanted to get back on the line. I wanted to keep doing. I wanted to go out on missions more. And don't get me wrong. It was still Korea, so they still had me doing missions, right? Because in Korea, you have a little bit of people. So, a lot of people get put in leadership and they're holding multiple roles. And that was always me, too. So, I remember it was a month before my promotion board, and it was another Soldier of the Month board. And at this point, I was so exhausted.

And I knew one of my other buddies, she was going up for it. She was in the headquarters platoon, and she was going up for it, too. So, I made sure I worked with her. I, like, studied with her. I told her, this is what I did, mock boards, all of this stuff, because I wanted her to beat me. I didn't want her, you know. And I remember going through it, and I'm like, I still know more than her, because I've been doing it for so long. So, I was like, I need to mess this board up. And that's ballsy right before a promotion board, because when you're going to these boards, it's first sergeants, it's sergeant majors, it's so all these people.

It's probably the same people, too. It normally is, you know? And so, I remember I go to the Soldier of the Month board right before, and I go with my uniform all jacked up. I didn't polish my boots at all. My awards were, like, lopsided to my – the whole thing was a hot mess. I think at one point, I didn't even tuck in my shirt. Like, I just didn't – I didn't want to win. I did not want to win. And that was me. Because if they ask me questions, a lot of times I am going to answer because I hate lying or deceiving. But I remember when they were asking questions, I was like, I don't know. And I was trying to be nonchalant about it, but then I could see the sergeant major getting bored and more mad.

So, we finished it, and I bombed it. I looked horrible. And then I remember he pulled me aside afterwards, and he's like, first off, he's like, you barely lost this board. And I was like, oh, my God. I was like, how did I barely, because they wanted me to be their poster child. And I was like, and he's up, but then he did shoot me out, and he's like, you better not come in here next month into the promotion board looking like this. You better come for pay, like, all this whole thing, what they tell you. So, but thankfully, because some of my friends are like, if you go like that, they're going to not let you go to the promotion board.

And that was a risk. Like, that was a risk, but I was willing to take the risk.

PJ: Interesting.

Jen: Yeah. And I was like, I'm like, I just don't want to do this. Because I remember, and I kept on, that was the thing, too. Like, I wasn't just this rebellious soldier just to be rebellious. I remember I went to my chain of command, and I was like, I don't want to do this anymore.

PJ: Well, you knew what you wanted.

Jen: Yeah.

PJ: And they weren't really helping you get what you wanted.

Jen: Exactly.

PJ: So, what was it about, because right now you're still going on, like, the physical side of things. So, what transformed then at that point?

Jen: So, a lot of accountability in that role. So, again, in Korea, I was in charge of COMSEC, right? So, I was a PV nothing. No, I was a PV, too. I had my little mosquito wings. And they had me in charge of the COMSEC vault and, like, running numbers, serial numbers, all this stuff. And so I think, so learning what I learned about UCMJ, about Army regulation, about all of that, again, gave me a really big insight to the military. But then when I started because of that, that did highlight my potential for leadership roles for different positions. So, when I was doing COMSEC, I was like, okay, there's something here, right?

And actually, in Signal, too, there was this one troop. A lot of people didn't like him because, you know, there's always somebody that's awkward or whatever the case may be, so they don't like because they're not socially inclined or whatever. And, but I remember, again, I always gave everyone an opportunity. I talked to everyone. I love talking to people. And so, I remember I sat with him, and we were just chatting. And at the time, I was coming out of being the board soldier, so I had to relearn a lot of the stuff of Signal, right?

PJ: Interesting.

Jen: Yeah, yeah. So, even those few months away, like, really. So, I remember I sat with him, and we were in an exercise, and, like, I was doing my work, blah, blah, blah. And then I just kept on telling him, like, I just don't get, like, why this and that and the third is being done like this. So, he's the first person that sat down with me and, like, really explained Signal and the way Signal flows and the network, because he was so smart. Yeah, I bet. He was so smart. And he was like the first one. And to break it down in a way that this dummy understood it, you know, because at the time, I was like, oh, she's a dummy in that aspect, right?

Because again, I really valued the physical aspect. So like that, it was like, okay, whatever. But yeah, so that kind of really transformed that whole thing. Like, okay, I got some knowledge behind me. I was getting in leadership roles. And then on top of that, like, something that really stuck with me regardless was to take care of your troops, right? Always take care of your troops. And then as I got more and more leadership roles that kept happening, I don't know if I told you, but there was a situation where, again, justice inclined, there was a situation where a sergeant, he came, he was, like, flipping out on troops.

First sergeant was like, no, you can't smoke someone right before PT. And the reason was, unfortunately, one of the troops in our platoon, he raped another service member. Yeah. But that NCO came and flipped out on all of us and was like, it's your fault because you weren't with your battle buddy 24-7. Like, this was at night when everyone was asleep. But regardless, so I stood up for the troops. I remember not my best, not my finest moment, but I threw a field manual at him, and I flipped because we were doing inventories for a change of command. A commander was coming in. And so, that was probably, at least at the beginning of my career, that was probably my worst behavior.

But, again, I felt it was just because you're not following what First Sergeant said. You're not following what all this does. So, again, there was reasons why I did it, you know? But, yeah, a pivotal moment was Sergeant Whitaker. And right after that whole situation, he pulled me aside and was like, look, you're going to have to learn this military. You're not back on the block. You're not in New York. He's like, you really have to learn that with leadership, you're going to have good leaders that you're going to learn so much from, and you're going to grow from them. But you're also going to have horrible leaders and bad leaders that you also have to learn from them.

Absolutely. Yeah. And so, I think like that big, that was like one of the biggest lessons that I tried to implement throughout my entire career. Honestly, throughout different aspects of my life.

PJ: Yeah.

Jen: Things that I even tell to my daughters now, honestly.

PJ: Yeah.

Jen: Absolutely.

PJ: Absolutely.

Jen: Because again, you are. You're always going to encounter good and bad. It's what we do with that good and bad, right? Like, how do we shape it? How do we shift perspectives on it, right? And learn from it. So, that early on really shaped me.

PJ: How did you take that and further develop it to continue blossoming as like a

Jen: soldier and maybe as a human? Yeah. Like I said, so a lot of those lessons, I just kept on feeding, right? We want something in our lives, we have to feed it. Positive, negative, whatever it is, we have to feed it. So, I kept feeding it, right? So, I kept on, again, one of the other big things my brother said early on in the career was like, volunteer for everything. If there's an opportunity for you to volunteer, right? Because it is going to advance you. So, and I was a big, I think I didn't touch on this, but I started volunteering early on. When I played softball, I would coach, like, the younger girls and things like that.

So, volunteer and, like, community service for me has throughout my entire life. So, him saying, oh, volunteer, I was like, oh, that's easy. So, yeah. So, these situations would have come into play while I was in serving. And I was like, sure, I'll do it. Sure, I'll do it. So, like, it opened me up to, again, to just a larger knowledge of understanding the military as a whole. So, in Korea, I had a very fruitful. I had my first 30-day platoon sergeant time as a specialist in Korea. Wow. Yeah. And while we were in the field and stuff, and it was, again, people were getting pulled. It was, everyone was getting deployed.

So, you're getting people pulled, and especially signals. Like, signal was getting pulled to all different areas. So, you have to step up, you know, even in whatever rank you were at. And another big thing that they always told me, they're like,

PJ: always work two ranks above your patron. Oh, yeah. Hey, pause.

Jen: That is a hugely important skill, by the way, to use even out in the civilian world. Yes. And it's true, because that, again, that's another life lesson that I learned in the military that I have implemented into my life ever since, you know, in every role I've been in. So, like I said, that continued to blossom throughout my military career, right? Different positions, different things. Even, again, I was a training NCO, and I had my girls in service, right? So, even though I had two daughters, so it took me out of, like, the real big thing, two years. And I wouldn't say big thing, but it, again, it guided me to learn more about the military.

I was an S-1. I was a training NCO. Like, I'm telling you. I was an S-1.

PJ: You were an S-1 too? I was an adjutant when I was in that, so I worked a lot with S-1.

Jen: So, all these little things are, like, just filling the puzzle pieces for me, right? And so, you know, continue to take care of soldiers. And then I think a big part of it, too, for me was, not everything was so clear cut, right, in the military. Not every day was like, oh, rainbows and butterflies. No, it wasn't. Even if you were in garrison, right? And so, a big realization for that to me also was when I was a training NCO. I already had my girls. At this point, people were deploying, coming back from deployment. I had troops. And again, because I was always doing work, first sergeants, commanders, they loved me, right?

And they're like, here, there's this not-so-great soldier. Fix them or get them right. And I was like, here we go again, right? So, I would try to guide them. So, I had a lot of coaching early on in the military. So, again, always helping people, always trying to get them, blah, blah, blah. And I think the big aspect of that, too, what gave a lot of knowledge to me was the fact that I had troops deploying, and they were coming back. And then when they were coming back, that's when the realities of war followed back home, right? And so, in those scenarios, there was a lot of hardship that I got to see.

I got to see people leaving normal and coming back, not themselves. And then the impact that it would have on the family, the abuse, the child crying in the corner, whatever it was, right? And so, all those different scenarios really influenced me, like really impacted me to the point where I knew I hadn't deployed yet. At this point, it was 2008. I hadn't deployed yet, and I was like, it's coming. It's only a matter of time because everyone was going on rotation.

PJ: And like I said, signal, we were getting sent to all different air defense units.

Jen: It's such a vital field. Yeah. So, yeah. So, fast forward, all that's happening, and I'm like, all right, I have to learn something from this. At the time, I didn't know yet what it was, right? Because also, you're in survival mode, too, because you're still in the military. You're taking care of troops. You're trying to take care of families. You're trying to – all of that. So, and then on top of that, I was married, right? And I was married to another service member. So, that had its difficulties all together. And so, yeah. So, I remember right before I deployed, my ex-husband had deployed, my girl's dad deployed.

And so, when he deployed, obviously, I was raising my girls alone. I was still in the Army. I was still doing work. I was still doing it all. So, I grew to learn to have grace and empathy, not just towards military members, but to the families. A lot to the families, because I got to understand the hardship that you go through when someone deploys, you know? And so, unfortunately, we were going through a ray of divorce in that time frame. So, it was tough, right? And then he came back, and not even a month later, he tried to kill me. And so, I tried to pull out a gun. Thankfully, again, I was very physical, and I reacted.

And so, again, where it came from, I don't know. But I thank God that I reacted the way I reacted, got the weapon away from him, and I'm here to tell the story, you know? And so, yeah, it was a lot of ups and downs. And First Sergeant Williams, he was a First Sergeant at the time. So much love for that man, because he really did try. I was just training NCO, so we had a good relationship with First Sergeant. And I remember when my ex-husband came back from deployment, he even came to work and tried to cause a scene there. Yeah, it was so embarrassing. And so, again, and someone...

PJ: Who was his MOS?

Jen: He was the same MOS as I was.

PJ: Really interesting.

Jen: Yeah.

PJ: Interesting.

Jen: Yeah. And so, there was just a lot that was happening in that moment, and I was like, oh, man. And when you're in it, you can't really see outside of it. Even though I had all these tools from before of how I helped this person and that person, but when you're in it, you're clouded, and you need someone to help you.

PJ: But you're on this level. You made it through some incredibly difficult things. You have learned leadership. You've learned that you can learn. So, you have these skills that you're picking up along the way that may have been hard to see in that situation. But, oh, my God, now, what have they brought you to be able to accomplish outside of these situations?

Jen: Exactly.

PJ: So, do you mind, I know you struggled with some medical things, and that led to you getting out, and even now, just like day-to-day life. Can you talk through some of that?

Jen: Yeah. So, yeah. So, after that situation, I deployed. I got orders to deploy. So, right before I deployed, though, I was in warrior leadership course, and that's when I had my first knee injury.

PJ: Ninja warrior training.

Jen: Yeah, exactly. But yeah, no, I was doing the course, and unfortunately, there was like a pothole. They didn't announce it. My leg just went in and twisted, and it wasn't a great war story, but it was that, right? That was the onset of my first injury in the military. And so, like I said, so I had surgery. I recovered. I was running again. May and probably shouldn't have been, but I was. I was very stubborn again. And running was, again, it was an outlet for me. So, when I was going through all that divorce situation, it was a very big outlet for me. So, fast forward to deployment, got re-hurt again.

Walking around in crutches in the desert is not fun.

PJ: Oh, my God.

Jen: And when you're under fear of, like, mortar attacks and all these aerial attacks and you have to run to a bunker, it wasn't the best scenario for me. So, I think that that in itself also played a big impact for me, but for my mental, like, being. And then when I deployed, I led troops, too, and these troops had family members. One of my troops, he had, like, four children. So, like, it wasn't just the care for me, it was that. So, yeah, so it was the physical, and then it was also the mental aspect of it that really played with me. So, I came back from deployment, and unfortunately, it was like a month to three months later, it was like surgery.

Boom. So, it was, let's go have another surgery, second surgery. And then that one failed. So, it was like, I think it was like six to eight months later, boom, another surgery. And mind you, each of these surgeries, your initial recovery when you're in crutches and not walking and really relying on people is at least two months, at least the ones that I was having. So, it was a lot in that recovery process in itself. And then I'm still military. I'm still an NCO. I still had troops. I was even a platoon sergeant. And, like, so I didn't have, like, onesies and twosies. I had a whole entire platoon that I'm, like, in charge of, you know?

And because we were at division level, we're doing all the audiovisual for the general and not, again, not just for us, for all our subordinate units.

PJ: And you had two kids. And you were going through a divorce.

Jen: Yeah.

PJ: Wow.

Jen: And we had to do the modernization because that was when the AV stuff started really shifting and changing in the military. So, it was a lot. It was a lot. So, yeah, surgery after surgery. And then finally, after the first surgery, it was the same surgeon that did all of them. After the first one, he was like, we should think about getting you out. And I was like, nope, I have goals. I want to be drill sergeant. I want to do this. I want to stay in, da, da, da. And he's like, well, think about it. You have young girls, you know? And so I was like, whatever. I was like, I'll be fine. I know.

I just got to work out. That was always my...

PJ: Yeah, I just could drink water and drink water and keep, you know, drive on.

Jen: Change my socks.

PJ: Yeah, yeah.

Jen: And so, seriously. And so, and then it was finally, I had five surgeries in service.

PJ: Oh, my God.

Jen: To the same knee. Yeah. And so, then after the fifth one, and I was not recovering, because I would. I would attempt to run. I was doing PT. I did everything that they asked me to do, but it just wasn't working. Like, it didn't, I don't know, whatever it was. And so, after the fifth one, they're like, this isn't an option for you anymore. And he was like, you're gone. We have to medically separate you. So, I was like, fine, whatever. So, I remember I went back to the sergeant. Because in division, we have our shop. So, I was in the G6 shop. And so, in the shop, we had a sergeant major, a full-bird colonel, a lieutenant colonel, a few master sergeants.

So, there was a lot of higher-ranking folks there. And I remember, like, sitting down and talking to my master sergeant and to the sergeant major and telling them, like, hey, this is what they just told me. This isn't what I want, and blah, blah, blah. But, like, I also have to make that decision. My girls are still young. Like, they are young, and I was young. I was, I think when they told me, I was, like, 26 when they were telling me to process, to start the process and all that stuff. So, I was still young, you know? And so, it went quick. Like, I did the PEB. That's when they were still working it all out.

But I'm really thankful to my Sergeant Major, Sergeant Major Taylor, awesome man. He supported me throughout the medical separation process, and he even flew with me to Fort Lewis in Washington.

PJ: Yeah.

Jen: And that was the type of leader that I always wanted to keep striving to be. Let's take care of our folks. And that's something I feel sometimes we misinterpret in the military's mission, mission, mission. Yeah, mission there, but we can't accomplish that mission if our troops are not taken care of. And I can't tell you how many times I kept on saying that to them, especially because, again, coming back from Iraq and all of that, a lot of people were coming back. And mentally, physically, they were here, but mentally, they weren't. And I can't tell you. And a lot of leadership that I saw, they would laugh at the troops and make fun of them because they had to get the weapons taken away and this, that.

And I'm like, this isn't a joking matter. Like, these are lives at stake. And these are people that we called friends. So, like, a lot of that really started impacting the way I even started seeing the military, right? And then everything. I dealt with my ex-husband and whatnot.

PJ: Something, I'm sorry, something that I just saw actually on LinkedIn, was it yesterday, two days ago, was a beautiful quote. And I think it was from, I don't know if it was a new deputy of the Navy or something like that, but he said something here. It was like, suicide is a leadership problem.

Jen: I agree.

PJ: And that's what you're illustrating here, is like there's a leadership failure. And that's the whole point of leadership is it's about people.

Jen: Right. Because nothing gets accomplished without the people.

PJ: Exactly. It's not about you.

Jen: It's about the people. Exactly. I'm sorry.

PJ: Thank you. No, no, you're a Spartan.

Jen: Because, again, this is one of the scenarios that really has stuck with me, too. Had a female soldier. She was also due in military. We were pregnant around the same age. Her husband had deployed. He had came back. I can't talk to if he was abusive or not. All I know is that, unfortunately, she lost her child shortly after she had her child. And that's one of the hardest things to do. And so, and I'm getting goosebumps just talking about it, because I remember, like, it wasn't the first version I spoke about. It was other ones. But I remember they come up to me, and again, they would give me soldiers to fix, right?

And I remember they came up to me, and they're like, go deal with this troop. She's crazy because she lost. And I was like, dumbfounded at the lack of care that they had for this person at all. Because, unfortunately, she was dealing with the grieving, The natural grieving process of losing a child, you know? And that comes with its toll. You're not taking care of your household. Unfortunately, it's now a mess. You're not eating, right? It's a mental health issue, right? It becomes a mental health issue. And I remember I had to go there, and I had to go to her house, help her clean, get her meal prep.

And I remember how, especially because my daughter, they were days apart. So, I was like, how crappy is that our leadership is not caring about this? Yeah, she didn't lose her sanity in war, but these are real people, and that's what our soldiers are. I know they love saying we're just a piece of property, but you're not just a book. There's actual humanness behind that property that we call, you know? And so, that was a big, other big factors that really started playing with me and how, like, I'd started seeing a lot of, like, the military side of things.

PJ: I got you.

Jen: And so, yeah. So, when they finally were like, yeah, we're going to get you out, blah, blah, blah. I was like, okay. Yeah. Like, I think I was like, yeah, let's do this. And then, again, like, I dealt with my ex-husband, and he was in the military. He had a higher ranks. And he got to the point where he even had other sergeant majors, like, when I deployed, cause issues to me.

PJ: Yeah.

Jen: It was tough. So, I got to see the beautiful side of the military, but then I got to also see The not-so-beautiful side of the military.

PJ: And you talked about that earlier.

Jen: Mm-hmm. And I'm grateful for both of them, right? I mean, I am grateful for both of them. So, again, now we talk about, like, I did my medical board. I ended up getting medically retired because, like I said, I had support of great leadership. And he was the one that went with me, but I don't want to just say it was just him. I had a lot of support from a lot of the leadership there that I even had other majors and colonels and stuff write letters for me.

PJ: Yeah.

Jen: So, I was very appreciative of that. But again, if you take care of people, people tend to take care of you as well. And that's something I also learned in the military. So, yeah. So, now here I am. They approved me to get medically retired, and it was a system that was very broken. I've heard that it's a lot better now. Now, I know someone that went through the medical retirement process and the PEB process, and it went a lot smoother.

PJ: Yeah.

Jen: So, I've heard that it's gotten better. But when I got out, it was quick. So, they're like, we'll let you know whenever they decide to let us know, and then you're going to leave right after that. And it was quick. It was like two, three weeks, and they're like, they told them they got the email. They're like, you're going to be gone in three weeks. 18 months. Sorry.

PJ: I'm curious to know, though, because that is fast.

Jen: Yeah.

PJ: And you had, again, we just talked about whole person. You were initially very physically oriented. At this time, though, getting out due to something physical, right, that probably limited who you could be physically, how did that affect your psyche?

Jen: Oh, it was bad. It was bad. And the thing is, I didn't notice it was bad.

PJ: Of course.

Jen: Of course, because you don't know, right? And so, again, because even until I got that email, I was still doing things with troops. And something I didn't touch upon earlier, when I came back from deployment, I wasn't okay. I knew I wasn't okay. I had gone to this, you know, and it's Bahrain, right? A lot of people think Bahrain. But we weren't in the NSA area. We were in a different area. We were developing comms for the first time, supposedly, since the Gulf War. So, like, we were separated. We were actual, like, deployment, deployment, right? So that, and then I was out of our safe zone every day because my job, my MOS, that's what it required.

I was setting up comms throughout different parts of Bahrain. And so, that played a lot with my psyche. When I came back, I remember I got a speeding ticket because I thought there was a box in the middle of the road. I'm like, I did. So, I'm like zooming by, got a ticket, and they're like, don't do that. And it was like three days after I came back. And my unit didn't understand it, right? Like, if they're making fun of all these other people, my unit didn't understand that either. Because, again, it was three people from our unit that went to this special mission to be attached to some other people like that we didn't even know.

So, that in itself was funny. So, I was already struggling with my deployment stuff. I was struggling with the divorce. I was struggling with the constant surgery after surgery. I was struggling heavily, especially because I really thrived and, like, really tried to be a good leader. I was struggling with being a good leader and not being physically capable of being that leader.

PJ: Were you taking care of yourself?

Jen: No.

PJ: Yeah. Let's be real. When? When in all of that?

Jen: No, I hear you.

PJ: That's why I'm asking.

Jen: Yeah. And that was my error, right? You talk about, like, we make these choices. There's certain things that we, but again, if we didn't know how to do it also, and if we can't see outside of that scope in that moment, who, when, how, you know?

PJ: Absolutely.

Jen: And so, yeah. So, yeah. So, got the medical retirement stuff, and that was something that we didn't even touch upon, right? Like, we didn't even touch on my PTSD that I had. And because right before I got out, I was in outpatient therapy because I flipped out. You know, I flipped out on an NCO, and then on top of that, I had a moment, and again, we were talking about this earlier about parenting, right? Like, we do learn this trial and error. And unfortunately, when I came back, again, where I was at mentally, I ended up flipping out on my daughters when we were doing something simple as baking a cake.

And I remember I flipped out on them, and they started crying, and I'm like, what? And I had to stop and reflect for myself. So, I got them to bed, and I remember I just bawled on the floor crying in the kitchen as I'm trying to clean up all the cake stuff. And I'm like, what am I doing? And that's what pushed me to go to mental health the next day. So, I went to mental health, and I was like, this is happening. I'm getting medically retired or medically separated because I wasn't sure if I was getting retired at that point. And I was like, this, this, this. And I just started, like, I actually did.

And I sought out the help. And I went, and I was like, this, all of this. And they wanted to put me in an inpatient at first. They're like, just because of the amount of stress and the amount of everything I was just dealing with. And, like, I was angry. I used to carry a knife on me. And so part of that, too, I have military sexual trauma, right? And then part of that, I used to carry a knife because of a protective factor. And in a certain unit, there was officers that were getting away with it so much. So I was like, I'm going to take matters into my own hands. And if you're going to come at me, I am going to stab you.

You know, like, so, I was vocal about that. So, a lot of people at that point stood away. But again.

PJ: I like Dina from Brooklyn, yeah.

Jen: You know, yeah. And then I had just came back from deployment, too. So, like, I'm wired. Like, I'm hot. I'm spicy. Like, I was spicy, you know. And so, yeah. So, my, and that was the one thing that didn't get really brought on into my medical retirement was my psyche, my PTSD. It was all of that stuff. And so, here I go. I get out, and I'm like, okay, what now? Fortunately, I will say, because of my job, again, the same job that I wanted to be rugged and tough with was the same job that actually has helped me tremendously. Honestly, because throughout my military career, I didn't just do that.

I ended up doing IT. I did networking. I did audiovisual. And then I even did the satellite terminals. So, like, it was very colorful, my career as a signal soldier. And I'm very thankful for that. So, when I got out, I had certifications. I had Net Plus, Security Plus, fiber optics cable. So, I had a lot of tools for myself, but I was so burnt out from the military. I was burnt out of what – even that association of IT work, it just brought me back to the military. So, like, mentally, I wasn't. I didn't want to do it.

PJ: Yeah.

Jen: And so, I was getting job offers at FORSCOM and all this stuff because, again, like, what I was doing, especially at that time with audiovisual, was awesome. But I couldn't do it. And I remember at one point, I was getting even jobs to, like, go overseas and, like, go deploy again as a civilian. And I remember the same brother that told the recruiters, no, she's not going, was the same brother that told me I was an idiot for not deploying as a civilian to get money.

PJ: Well, we know what we know.

Jen: Yeah, exactly. And again, military, all of that, divorce, my kid's dad was not in the picture. He kind of wiped his hands clean type of situation. So, I dedicated, at that point, I was like, I don't want military. I don't want nothing to do. If it's not something that's going to help my daughters grow and develop from here, I'm like, I don't want it. And so, for a while, too, like, after I got out, I didn't want to deal with anything military. But again, that's kind of hard when you are medically retired.

PJ: I don't think that's uncommon.

Jen: Yeah. And I needed a lot of medical support. So, yeah, went to the VA and started doing the same thing, right? Continued to use those same aspects of the military, and I tried to advocate for myself in the VA. But unfortunately, I was young, 27. I was a woman. I was walking into the VAs, and I was sometimes the only woman there, and then a young one at that. So, like, there was a lot of, from the doctors, a lot of, like, pushback, especially when I would say, like, I had this, this, this, and all these surgeries. Even with symptoms, a lot of my neurological situations that I just got diagnosed probably, like, six years ago, I've had it since I separated.

And that was in 2013. Yeah, yeah. So, I spent years of not even getting the proper diagnosis and not even the proper treatment because I was being dismissed, unfortunately.

PJ: Right.

Jen: And again, sitting there in the waiting room with a bunch of Vietnam veterans, I heard the same stories time and time again.

PJ: Hey, I mean, look how long Agent Orange took.

Jen: Exactly. And so, yeah. So, I was at this point stuck. I was like, what can I do? And again, separated myself. And I was like, you know what? I'm going to go to school. I'm going to be a high school history teacher. I love history. I was like, and I want to shape the minds of the future, right? Like, you know, give them an opportunity to do something with their lives. And I was going to school, VR&E. I used a VR&E program.

PJ: Really cool.

Jen: It was great.

PJ: Oh, yeah. How was your experience at VR&E?

Jen: So, I've used it twice now.

PJ: Yeah.

Jen: So, the first time was tough, right? Because I wasn't sure what I wanted to do. I said teacher, and the counselor was like, sure. Was dismissive. She never answered emails. Just, I could go.

PJ: It's so counselor-dependent.

Jen: I know what you mean. It is, and it so is. And then I even got to the point where I remember early, like, when I had just taken some courses, and I took sociology and, like, criminology, and I was really loving, like, the behavioral, the mental health, all of that. And I remember I went back to her, and I was like, I want to switch it to psychology. And she was like, no, you can't. You got to stick with that. And I was like, you know, like, all right. Right. So, it was tough, right? Because a part of me wanted to fully pull away from the military because of the traumas and a lot of the situations.

PJ: I completely understand.

Jen: But I had to stay in some capacity. So, it got so bad that I even took a lot of my challenge coins, and I had a lot in service. When I first got out, I gave everything to my mom. And that was only because I had someone say, give it to her. You're going to want it years later. Because I wanted to

PJ: Throw everything out.

Jen: Like, I was so burnt out. I was like, I don't want any. And I just recently got it. So I'm thankful that I kept it.

PJ: You know, it's a nice little throwback. Well, again, I don't think this is uncommon. I know I did very similar. Like, I literally, like, military, what are you talking about? You know, I get it.

Jen: Yeah. And so, did the whole school, and I was doing that for a while. But again, unfortunately, it was just surgery after surgery after surgery. So, again, it kept circling back. And so, I thought my transition was going to be smooth at first, and it just kept on being challenge after challenge after challenge. And it had to, you know, I had to learn how to walk a few times. I had all these different things. And again, as a single parent raising two children, it was tough, you know? And so, fast forward to like after some surgeries, I was in TCU. I was getting, I was starting, I was well on my way.

I was like 10 classes away from graduating with my bachelor's in history. And my mom, unfortunately, had a tumor. She's up in New York. And I was in Texas at that point. So, she had a tumor in her leg. And I was like, all right, time to come up here. And I did. And that's when I started working at Etsy. So, I was like, all right, I'm going to be in New York. I need to financially support my family here. And I stopped going to school. So, I was like, I need to go back to something I know. And I got back into audiovisual, got the job at Etsy. And with something funny, and I didn't tell you this, at the time, I was still, or even now, I try to say I'm not a typical veteran.

I don't act like that.

PJ: No, no. Jen, you are. You know?

Jen: And I have this conversation with my girls, because I'm like, no, no, no, you are better.

PJ: Like, yeah.

Jen: And because I went to Etsy, and Etsy was so cool. Like, so, so about the person. They had mental health days. If you had a physical, like, they were just so willing to help you out as a human. Like, yes, we're going to get the work done, but they wanted to help out. But that was too slow. It was become more effective.

PJ: Yeah.

Jen: No, no, but that wasn't what I thought. Military general was like, this is so slow. They're not answering emails. I need to get this done, that.

PJ: Yeah, yeah.

Jen: I was in that mindset where, like, go, go, go, go, go. Again, survival mode.

PJ: Yeah.

Jen: I hadn't pulled out a survival mode yet. So, I immediately was like, okay, this is wonderful. The people I work with are great, but this isn't for me. Again, you don't know what you don't know yet, right? So, I was like, I got an offer at the law firm. And law firm, they're more strict, they're more, you know, timely, this, that. So, I was like, this, this is for me. Started working there. I did well, again, was doing really well. But back to your point, you can only last for so long going in a certain capacity. And especially when you've had many surgeries like I had. Because at that point, I had, no.

I think, yeah, no, at that point, I had all nine surgeries to my left knee.

PJ: What?

Jen: Yeah. Between both knees, it's 14, and in my body, shoulders and stuff, I've had 22.

PJ: Oh, my God.

Jen: So, yeah. So, I started working, and then it happened. My right knee finally gave out, which all my doctors told me, because I had so many surgeries to my left knee, the right knee was going to give out.

PJ: Great.

Jen: Overcompensating, yeah. And just, I didn't expect that when it was going to go out, it was going to go out with a bang. Like, it took out three of my major ligaments to my knee and, like, completely gone.

PJ: Wow.

Jen: It destroyed my meniscus. It destroyed a lot of things in there. So, it was major surgery. And that surgery itself, the recovery for that, it took almost two years to, like, get back.

PJ: That's incredible.

Jen: Mobility. Because they had to do more surgeries to, like, get moving. It was just a mess.

PJ: It was a mess.

Jen: And that was the thing. Because it was so major of a surgery, too, they didn't have a lot of orthopedic surgeons that knew how to tackle that major of a surgery. Because, again, it was like three major. It wasn't just your ACL. It was literally my three major ligaments holding my knee structure in place.

PJ: Yeah.

Jen: So, yeah. So, here we go. I did some on working from home from a little with them. But then, at that point, I was like, all right, I can't do this. So, I moved to PA from New York. I was like, let me get some peace and clarity. I've always loved nature. I'm from Honduras. I spent a lot of time with my grandpa on his little plantation. So, there was a lot of things that I love nature. I hike, all of that stuff. So, bought my house here in PA and got remarried and all this fun stuff. And yeah, and I stopped working for a while, right? And when I remarried, I, again, veteran, I was like, oh, you know, let me get back into the veteran lifestyle and all this stuff.

And he was another infantry guy with PTSD and just came back from Afghanistan as a civilian and all this other fun stuff. And yeah, and so I'm here dealing with all these medical issues, right? Because now it's not just my left knee. It's my right knee. It's my shoulder. It was all these things from all the surgeries that I was having. And on top of that, my medical, like, all my medical stuff started really declining, because, again, all the issues I was having at the VA just kept on getting worse and worse. They were ignoring me, even though they saw these symptoms. It was just really bad.

PJ: Have you noticed it getting better at all?

Jen: No.

PJ: No, you haven't.

Jen: Nah. So, there are providers that actually care, right?

PJ: Oh, sure, sure.

Jen: There are so many providers that actually care. And unfortunately, until the systems at the hospitals get fixed, policies, implementation, how they're going to implement, and then actual accountability of their providers, until that is done, it's going to continue.

PJ: So, it's a top-down thing.

Jen: It's a top-down thing, for sure. And the reason I keep on saying, and yes, at the top, because they're the ones managing all of this, how this is getting implemented, all of that, right? I have CRPS, complex regional pain syndrome, one of the worst pain syndromes out there. Unfortunately, since my surgeries, I have it on my left limb and my upper limb and then my left lower limb. I went in for a pain procedure to help me. And that's not the only condition that limits you from accessing a limb. So, it was hard, regardless. And then, and the reason I also say this, too, because I got out 2013.

I've been dealing with medical conditions ever since.

PJ: Yeah, yeah.

Jen: And with a lot of dismissal of conditions, I had to be my biggest advocate. I had to learn what I had to learn about my conditions. I had to, because half the times, especially with the rare conditions, they will say what it is, but they don't know how it even looks like when it's happening. So, and that was another aspect of my delay of diagnosis, right?

PJ: I think a point that you're making is, no, it's okay. I think a point you're making is, like, transition doesn't really end.

Jen: Yeah. It's kind of like a, it's something that, it's really just life.

PJ: Yeah. It becomes life, right?

Jen: It becomes life. You have to learn how to adapt. And so, yeah, so transition for me didn't end there. I had to keep on adapting. I had to keep learning. And ultimately, that's why I'm studying psychology right now.

PJ: Okay, that was going to be my next question. Yeah, that's where I was trying to get it, but I forgot. And you have also the combat stigma or event that you do.

Jen: Yeah. So, and I'll go really back into the quick story of how that even came about. So, again, I'm going surgery after surgery. I'm dealing with issue after issue. I'm learning a lot about my conditions. I'm reading literally studies and how this connects to this and what we were talking about earlier. Like, if you have an injury to your knee, your ankle and your hip is probably going to be jacked up because it's all connected.

PJ: That's right.

Jen: So, I learned a lot of that on my own because, again, I utilized a lot of my research skills that I had when I was in the military and really started implementing that to the now, where I was at now. And so, my second divorce became violent, unfortunately. Had to have another shoulder surgery from that. And so, at this point, I was done. I had two divorces, two domestic violence situations. I was at a complete loss of who I was. I was so confident before, right? I used to talk about, like, being, you know, competing and all. And I used to be very confident. And then after domestic violence, especially in that capacity, it took a lot from me.

It took – and then, again, I was dealing with all that health stuff on top of that. It was a lot. And so, I got to the point where I was like, what am I doing? What am I really doing, right? And this is why I always say a pause and time to reflect for yourself is so important. And so, yeah, I stopped. I reflected. I was like, okay, these are my pathways. And I kind of almost did exactly what I did in the military when I would guide troops. Like, where do you want to be? This is where you want to be? Okay, these are the different routes that you can potentially take to get to that, you know? And so, that's kind of what I did.

And so, I remember I sat with my therapist, because again, going through this, and then the domestic violence for the second time at the hands of another veteran, I was like, there's something to this. So, I went to my therapist. We were tackling stuff from my military service, and I told her, I was like, I need something specific for, like, this domestic violence. And the reason I say that, and the reason I'm mentioning it now, because a lot of my psychological studies show that, especially with women veterans, a lot of our, like, the way PTSD, military sexual trauma, it influences our relationships.

And once you're in an abusive relationship or in a relationship like that, you're subjected to, once again, repeating that. So, that's where I was at. I was like, here I am. I repeated this. And whether I intentionally wanted it or not, there was something to it. Like, yeah, he was wrong. And I put that blame totally on him, right?

PJ: Got that.

Jen: But a part of that, where am I in that whole thing? So, I took that pause, and I had to really reflect of, like, what am I doing? What am I not doing? And so, I told her, I was like, and I remember she tried to be nice, and she was like, that's not on you. That's not on, I was like, no, no, no. But at the end of the day, I'm the common denominator. And I, like, respectfully, I need to figure out how I played a part into all of this.

PJ: Yes.

Jen: So, and I told her, I was like, I need to figure out this relationship thing, you know, blah, blah, blah. And so, and we looked at the domestic violence, because everything I was researching, I had to have specific, like, counseling, like, therapy that would help me really tackle that to be better, right? To not repeat these things, especially I come from a family line of that. I don't want that for my children. And so, yeah, VA didn't have anything. Shocker, again, for things that, unfortunately, that women needed, didn't have the services. So, I had to use my civilian counterparts. And I know a lot of times veterans are like, no, don't use it.

You don't know. You can't understand. And I was like that, too. But, no, they do, because they're living the life that we're trying to ultimately have.

PJ: We have.

Jen: We are trying to be a civilian.

PJ: We are a civilian.

Jen: That's right. The veteran identifier is still within us.

PJ: Yeah, absolutely.

Jen: It's still, right? But we are, and if we're trying to really integrate into civilian life, that's part of it, is accepting help from our civilian counterparts.

PJ: That's right.

Jen: And so, Safe Monroe, it was called Women's Resource of Monroe County. They helped me tremendously. But then I was still stuck. I was like... I had a great career. I had no longer, because the part that I forgot to tell you, with all the surgeries, there was a point where I could have gone back to work, but that was part of the domestic violence, was like, stay home, take care of everything at home, you know, the weaponizing competence. I can't clean. I can't do dishes. So, it was me, and I was raising four girls, because I had his two kids, too, four dogs in the house. So, like, I lost everything, right?

I had no career. So, I was like, what am I going to do? And then physically, I was like, even if I try to go back to school, I can't be a high school history teacher. I can't be standing in front of all these kids and all this stuff. It could cause physical harm to me. So, I was like, I had to restructure. And then because of the fact that they didn't have services for women veterans going through this, and the fact that I was getting so much pushback from the medical side, I was like, and I kept on trying to advocate for myself, and I was already doing a lot of the reading. I was like, you know what?

I'm going to go to school for psychology. And I reached out. I didn't know if I can do VR&E again, but I was like, why not? How about that? That's my big saying now.

PJ: Do you have a better counselor?

Jen: Yeah.

PJ: Okay.

Jen: Oh, my God. My counselor is awesome.

PJ: Yeah.

Jen: Sorry.

PJ: Oh, that's good. I'm glad to hear that.

Jen: I was very lucky.

PJ: Yeah. Especially if you got them right off the bat.

Jen: That was good.

PJ: That's good.

Jen: But yeah, so my big saying now is why not? Why not? Why not? Why not do it? So, why not try? So, message, and I was like, this is what I want to do. I want to go into psychology. I want to work with chronic pain patients. But I also, because I know I couldn't say, I just want to work with women veterans, because it's unfortunately not always well-received. And this is just a reality. And I'm not saying everywhere, it's just in certain places, not always well-received. So, I was like, chronic pain. And because, again, you do see the correlation between mental health and physical manifestations.

We've seen it since World War I, with shell shock, where everyone's going, doing the dance moves. Our bodies are often reflections of our inner state.

PJ: Correct.

Jen: Yeah. One of my favorite books, I'm going to mention it now.

PJ: Yeah, please do.

Jen: The body keeps the score, right? This book was pivotal in my own life. And I remember when I first tried to read it, because there's a lot of veteran stories. The doctor that did this, he did a lot of work with the VA early on. But I remember when I first tried to read it, I couldn't get past the first chapter. It was so hard, because it was just hitting up. Yeah. And I didn't even know why. I was like, but, you know, and then finally, I got through it. And I was like, this is such a good book. And the other reason why I like it, because again, it connects how women who deal with like sexual trauma, sexual abuse, anything like that, their equivalency of how like they represent with the PTSD is so similar to combat veterans.

And again, as a woman veteran, advocating for women vets, advocating for more intentional initiatives and therapies and interventions that are going to help women vets, we have to know that stuff. We have to know that because it's a growing demographic in our services, and a lot of them are coming out, and one in three women, so this is what the VA rates, one in three women They experienced military sexual trauma at some point in their military career. Men is one in 50. And then independent studies are higher than that. They do it like twice as higher than that. So, it's a big issue. And again, VA with how the VA system, there's a lot of women that don't want to deal with the VA system.

I've met a lot. When I was in Texas, I worked a little bit with a nonprofit organization working with women vets and working with spouses of vets and stuff like that. And I saw it there. I started working a little bit here, and I saw it here. So, it's an issue. Yeah. But yeah, so ultimately, seeing all these gaps with women, with health, with how it's connected, the mind and body is connected, I was like, I want to go to school for psychology. And so, yeah, so they approved me right away. I was like, I want to be a clinical psychologist. And I didn't know what that meant, right? I did not know what that meant at first.

But then she's like, do your research. And I did. And then I was like, holy moly, the amount of years that I'm going to be in school. You know, but again, nothing. I found my passion. Regardless, at the end of the day, I found my passion. This was it. And to me, it's worth however many years, right? And if I get to a capacity where I can help people, especially help that demographic that needs more help, it's going to be worth it. But, so yeah, so they approved me, go to school. And I had an associate's degree before. I told you, I almost had a bachelor's, too. But it was like eight years. And another thing, I don't know how much everyone knows about domestic violence, but when you go through certain amounts of, like, types of violence, it can change your brain.

It's like a TBI. Yeah. So, I didn't know, because I had memory issues. I had all this stuff. I didn't know if I could do school, physically, mentally, none of it. I didn't know if I could do it. So, I went to Northampton Community College. I signed up there. I sat with Alexis. I kind of told her the whole, not the whole thing, but kind of bits and pieces of what I thought would be prevalent. And then I was like, I'm going to do one class at a time. Just one class at a time. I spoke that with my counselor to see if I could even do it. So, I did. I started off with one class, and then one class became two, and then two became a full semester load, and then I graduated.

But during my time at Northampton Community College, I was very thankful. Okay, so my ex was a veteran, and he was the epitome of what I didn't want to surround myself with. But remember me going back to like sitting with a whole bunch of Vietnam veterans and them telling me their stories, and a lot of them, what it came down to was fear of doing something. Yeah. So, I remember I kept reflecting, and I was like, I can't be scared to be around veterans, especially if this is what I want to work with. I have to go head on. So, that's what I did. You know, I was like, you guys have a veteran group, Band of Brothers, and I was like, let's do this.

And it was just three of us at first. It was Ken, Alexis, and myself. And we just started talking. And then, like, so I went in the group. I was virtual because, again, I couldn't, like, physically even get up sometimes. So, and they're like, hey, we're thinking about doing something, an initiative. They're like, maybe with PTSD and TV. I was like, I got this. So, in the military, I did a lot of program development. Even when deployed, we did, like, Women's History Month. I did, like, a leadership program. So, I'm not a stranger to events and, like, things like that. And even when I was in Texas, dabbled on that as well.

And mind you, I've been volunteering my entire life. So, I've picked up a lot of useful tools along the way. Sure. So, I was like, let's do this. I'm like, right up my alley. You're talking about PTSD, TBI. And I was like, so let's do this. And so, then from there, we just started throwing ideas, and I led it. I became the president of Band of Brothers, and we just kept going. And so what was really cool was that the idea was to obviously bring awareness for PTSD and TBI. We didn't know how big it was going to get at first, right? Because we didn't. We're like, oh, we got some ideas. We're going to present it.

And I remember I saw a panel speaking. I was like, oh, I really like, though, the way people speak on a panel. You have all these different people saying their different sides of the story to this one thing. So I was like, let's do something like that. And we got a few politicians that were also veterans that are also NCC alum. We got actual professors, therapists. And then, so it became this whole big thing. And one of the biggest things that I kept on telling the team was like, I don't want this just to be us talking, but I want us to have resources. I want us to have, because another big thing, like I said, I kept on asking for like, oh, what resources is there for me?

I remember I also went to another veteran organization. I asked for support. There was nothing. Because even financially, I was dealing with stuff financially, and you know- They're not all created equal. They're not created equal. And nor should they be, really. Yeah. And it is what it is. It happened, and I was like, okay, but at the end of the day, and this is where I always say, one organization may be great for one, not great for the other. But this is why it's important to have a variety. There's 45,000, so. And that was the idea, right? So, the idea was like, let's get them under one roof.

Let's get them all here. Yeah. And so, that's what we did. We got a good amount of people out there, different supporters of military family, blah, blah, blah. And we spoke, and it went really well. And it went so well, like, they continue. It's now Northampton Community College's annual military event.

PJ: When is that?

Jen: So, I think when we did it, it was in April, but I think this year is in May, if I'm not mistaken.

PJ: Okay. I haven't been to that one yet.

Jen: I highly recommend it. North End, they do some great things, actually. They're a great little school that really makes sure they get out in the community and everything. It's really, really awesome. So, it got great because now it's this whole annual thing. I spoke at the second one. I really tried to touch up on, again, that there's all types of trauma in the military. And I think that's something that we fail to realize. Like, we're always like, combat, combat. And when we think combat, too, we're thinking direct fire, right? It's not always that direct fire. There's always, there's different types of trauma.

PJ: Absolutely.

Jen: And so, that was one of my biggest.

PJ: Trauma is subjective.

Jen: Exactly. So, that was something that I just wanted to get it out there. Like, it's not just this one type, it's all of this. And then these are so many different resources to support our colorful veterans, you know? And so, that went well, and it just kept going from there. And now, I'm at a point where I'm going to school. I'm going to Teachers College, Columbia University, continuing my clinical psychology. I'm getting my master's there, starting to work with the Resilience Center there, and hopefully some other opportunities at Teachers College. And just, I'm excited for the future.

And that's something that I couldn't say before, especially when you're in that trauma state. You can't find that excitement for what's next, right? For what's happening later on. It's like you're thinking now, you're so stuck in survival, right? Maslow's hierarchy of needs, right? If you don't have your fundamental thing, you're not going to think ahead, right? So, I was living in survival mode. I was raising my girls. I was dealing with medical. I was dealing with this. I was dealing with that. And so, now my girls are in college. They're doing well. One of them is a junior in college. The other one's a sophomore.

Both of them are doing well. Like, I'm very proud that, you know, I sacrificed a lot, but I put a lot of effort and energy into my daughters, and I really love who they are. And their goals, too. Like, they were wanting to work with veterans and stuff. Like, one of them, she already did an internship, and she was like, Mom, the cutest veteran was talking to me. So, like, it's really nice to see how that continues to play. Well, you set an example, and you, you know, modeled something that they admire, and that's what they're taking out of it, right?

PJ: Which is what we strive to do as parents or as leaders, which, by the way, same, same.

Jen: Same, same. Yeah.

PJ: And so, yeah.

Jen: So, it wasn't an easy road, right? And some days, it was one day at a time. Like I said, one class at a time. Sometimes, especially when I go through my flare-ups, it's literally one minute at a time. I take it one minute. And that's, I mean, that's life, though. Like, we're always going to encounter things. But if we want growth, right, if we're wanting to have growth, better our situation, then we have to actively make change.

PJ: Oh, yeah.

Jen: I did cognitive behavioral therapy for chronic pain. That was probably one of the things that changed my entire life.

PJ: Wow, that's amazing.

Jen: And it's not just like, because what they taught me, it wasn't just implemented for pain, but for my entire life. And it was that. It was like, one of the, and I'm sure a lot of veterans can relate, we don't take time for ourselves.

PJ: You even said that earlier.

Jen: We don't take time for ourselves.

PJ: Which, by the way, is probably one of the most important leadership principles, because you can't give someone else something you're not giving yourself.

Jen: Exactly. You know?

PJ: Yeah. You can't pour from an empty cup.

Jen: Exactly. And that was something I didn't know back then. I was like, oh, you know, I did all this leadership stuff.

PJ: Yeah, well, we just talked about that.

Jen: Right, exactly. And so, but yeah, and that's what something that's like CBT told me, because I remember they're like, take a five minute walk. I was like, five minutes? I was like, do you realize I'm raising my girls? They're like, all this stuff. And they were, and so I was like, fine. And then she settled on one minute. She's like, do it one minute. And so that's what I started doing. If I don't have time for myself, then I'm not going to be able to take care of my kids fully. I'm not going to be able to be the best version of myself, you know? So, yeah. So, a lot of all of that kind of just played into it.

PJ: Well, Jen, you know, you know what I really admire about your story here is like, you know, I've talked to a lot of veterans where we think that we get out and we don't have the skills or the whatever, whatever it is, we don't, we're missing something to be successful in the world. Oh, I didn't get XYZ certification. Oh, I was infantry, so that means that I can't... What am I going to do? Do I got to be a cop or a security guard? It's like, no. There's so many things that we learned, in fact. We learned leadership. We learned communication. We learned... Discipline. Discipline's the biggest one.

We learned how to be resourceful, which is, to me, one of the most important skills that anybody can have. When shit happens, which, by the way, it's life, that happens, we can go out and be flexible and change. And, I mean, you are an example of that. I mean, you went to, you know, Etsy, like you were saying, you went to this law firm, and yeah, you may have been falling back on some, like, actual hard skills in some of those, but now you're getting into, like, psychology, and what was it? You said earlier that, oh, I was dumb, and now look at you getting a master's in it from Columbia, no less.

Jen: Yes.

PJ: But it's like we, I love this saying, like, if you fight for your limitations, you get to keep them. Let that one sink in for a minute. You know? Like, we do this to ourselves. Oh, I'm too young. I'm too hurt. I'm too old. I'm too whatever. But if we don't fall back and just take a breath and be like, okay, is that really true?

Jen: Well, yeah, and you're spot on because you know how many times I've had providers tell me I wasn't going to walk again. I was going to be in a wheelchair. And I was like, well, let's see. And so you have to kind of be ballsy almost with your own life. You have to take life and just take risks too. I feel like sometimes, and that's trauma, right? Sometimes that's just trauma in itself that it limits us from trying, from going out there. But if we remember who we were in service, right? And this is where my daughter, my youngest, I attribute a lot of my confidence again to my daughter because she, after everything happened and I was like, oh, and I didn't want to see my award, none of that.

My kid, and I found my I Love Me book, and I was like, oh, cool. And I was like, but I don't want to see it. And I put it away, and my kid brought it out. She was like, Mom, put this on your office. Put this on the wall in your office. She's like, remember who the heck you were, like what you did. And I was like, holy shit, like my kid is telling me this. So then I'm like, so I did that. I did exactly that. If you look at my home office now, like literally my awards, all my stuff is on the walls and stuff. And I remember when I first started seeing them, I'm like, who the heck is this? Like, look, what am I trying to do?

Like, who am I, you know? But it reminded me of who I was and what I was able to do. And I'm like, that hasn't shifted. But trauma makes us believe that we're not that anymore. So, point is, let's tackle it. Let's use the same thing. Again, the same skill sets that we used in service and implemented that to now, right? It might not look the same, and there's going to be trial and error. There's trial and error in everything in life, right? But you've got to keep pushing forward for something you want. If you want change, you have to make change.

PJ: Nothing changes if nothing changes.

Jen: Exactly. Nothing changes if nothing changes. So, like, you have to make that change. And it's not your therapist. It's not your best friend. It's not X, Y, and Z. It's you. You have to take that time for yourself. Take that accountability for yourself. It's not easy looking into the darkest parts of yourself, but when you do that, you're able to grow so much. You've got to swallow some porcupines sometimes. Yeah, that ego. We can't live through ego. That ego, let's kick it out, and let's live what we're doing now. And a big thing with that, too, I would say vulnerability. In the military, we're told constantly, vulnerability is weakness.

But that's a part of that, too.

PJ: Well, ego doesn't let you be vulnerable, right?

Jen: I'm sorry?

PJ: That's the ego doesn't often let you be.

Jen: Yeah, right. Exactly. And that's my point. But we miss out on relationships, on connections so much. Brene Brown, one of my favorite authors and psychologist, she constantly talks about vulnerability. And I can't tell you how much, like my kids probably get bored of me talking. The way they get bored of me talking about this, they get bored of me talking about vulnerability. But it's true. Until I was vulnerable and asking people for support and willing to really dig deep into that, I was stuck. I was stuck. I was literally hitting a wall. And so it wasn't until I started building relationships, started talking to people.

And there's certain things, you don't have to be vulnerable with everyone, right? But having that vulnerability with people, it creates beautiful relationships, beautiful connections.

PJ: I wanted one more thing here, if you don't mind. If you had one piece of guidance, advice, or whatever that you would want to offer someone who's transitioning out of the military, maybe they're going through something medical, or maybe they did have trauma, or their families, for that matter, what would that be?

Jen: Stay connected. Find your purpose. Look for the resources that you need, and don't give up. Like, again, I mentioned this earlier. You know, one resource may not work for you, but that doesn't mean all of them are like that. There's people out there that care. There's people that can be probably a little bit more in tune to your needs. But get the care. And don't give up, man. Don't give up. Just keep striving to better yourself, whatever that looks like. Like, whatever that looks like. But continuously move forward, right? That growth mindset. I always talk about the growth mindset. Try to grow in whatever capacity, even if it's one little thing.

Again, one minute a day. Give yourself that one minute a day. So, yeah.

PJ: Yeah. Well, you know, actually, you said something a little before, too, that I think could be very useful in this, in exactly what you're saying. You said your daughter brought out the I Love Me book. And I think we all have these, right? Like, we have our cookies, we have our whatever, you know, like, but I think there's something deeper here in that, like, it's very easy for us to go, I want nothing to do with the military, because when we get out, that was a part of our identity. And we're like, well, I'm not that anymore. I need to get rid of whatever that is. But that was an identity that was issued to you.

It was externally given to you. It is not one that necessarily is who you are. But the thing that you said, though, about how you put up the I love me stuff on your walls, there's something deeper here. And those things that helped you get those awards, whatever it may be, wasn't the Marine. It wasn't the soldier. It wasn't the whatever. It was you. It was you that did that. So, you rediscovered, in some level, who you are.

Jen: Yeah.

PJ: Despite all of those challenges.

Jen: Despite all those challenges. And we don't have to erase any parts of that. That's the other thing. I think a lot of us feel like, again, trauma, you want to erase that. You don't have to erase it. It doesn't have to define you. It doesn't have to define you. It's just something. Because we all go through different things, right? We all, everyone goes through different things in life. So, not one thing defines who you are. You define who you are. Even if other groups of people are trying to say, this person's this, this, that, that still doesn't define who you are, you know? So, yeah, figure that out for yourself again.

This is where that pause comes into the point.

PJ: Well, thank you for that illustration. I don't know if you realized it, but that was like, that rung in my head. You have two books here. What else did you want to share?

Jen: Three books.

PJ: You have three books here.

Jen: Oh, I know. So, I already mentioned The Body Keeps the Score, because that's a good one. So, this one, The Permission to Feel. The reason I felt this one needs to come in, because growing up, I was not allowed to feel. Well, I think it was just the military. I think that was my point. In the military, not allowed to feel. But this book is actually really good, and it has, like, the emotions wheel and things like that. Just, it's sometimes, especially with trauma, we lose language on how to express ourselves, and sometimes we never even learned it, right? But this book gives a good explanation of that, and it, like, again, be open.

You have to be open-minded, but it's a really good one. So, and it's a short read. It's not that bad, and you could probably see my personal notes on here. And then the other one is Restoring the Warrior. So, our good friend, Benjamin Yopes, Dr. Ben.

PJ: He was on the podcast, yeah.

Jen: Yeah. It's a good book, and it's awesome because it's printed for, like, TBI and stuff like that, so easy read. But then it's also cool because at the end, it has the group, how to like have the different groups, and it has like weekly readings. And there are three, I have three little pages of my, more of my story on here.

PJ: Oh, yeah.

Jen: Check that one out. And talking about my growth and my post-traumatic growth through that experience. So, yeah, I recommend it. And then I just had these because these are old, these are old film. I just wanted to show you guys, like old school film.

PJ: Yeah, don't throw that stuff away.

Jen: I'm not throwing this.

PJ: Yeah, no.

Jen: That was it.

PJ: What about your favorite podcast?

Jen: Psychology Unplugged.

PJ: It's a good one.

Jen: Again, I'm on to psychology right now. But that's a good one because it goes into different aspects of psychology.

PJ: Well, I appreciate it.

Jen: Well, thank you.

PJ: Hey, friends, as you know, please like, subscribe. Please share this with people that you think might benefit. I think that you have some wonderful things to share. And, you know, we have a lot of episodes at this point. I just learned this, actually. Apparently, most podcasts don't make it past 13. I think we're up to like 20-something. So how about that? Congratulations. So, yeah. Thank you for stopping by. Like, subscribe, share your comments. Let us know if you have any questions for Jen here. How can people get a hold of you?

Jen: LinkedIn or my email, my veteran email.

PJ: Okay, cool, cool. I'll share those in the show notes. Thank you for coming on through.

Jen: Thank you so much.

PJ: Thank you for stopping on by. We'll see you next time. Bye.