Fallujah Marine on Combat, Identity Loss, and Finding the Courage to Heal

Speaker labels and mis-heard names are corrected by hand; the words are as spoken, filler and all.

Preview clips

Adam: I remember cleaning a weapon and seeing my friend's blood still on the weapon from months prior. I woke up every morning, put my boots on, and this is the greatest [expletive] job in the world.

PJ: Wow.

Adam: Most people don't like their jobs. They hate it.

PJ: Yeah.

Adam: You were in a position where you loved your job. You were biased. You need to understand if you kind of like your job a little bit, you're ahead of most people. You could play in the NFL or you could be Tom Brady. You could you could dunk a basketball or you could be Michael Jordan. We were [expletive] Michael Jordan. I felt the breeze of the RPK machine gun rounds pass by my face at one point. Not the crack, not not the pop, not the crack, the breeze, the wind. Like, and and that's something you just can't fathom until you experience it. And once you experience it, you're like, "Holy [expletive] that was [expletive] badass."

PJ: The hard part about something like that is it's fragile because as soon as it's taken away,

Adam: 100%

PJ: it's gone. And then who are we?

Adam: Courage is not the absence of fear.

PJ: Yeah.

Adam: Courage is accomplishing the mission in the face of fear.

PJ: Yes.

Adam: And so for that I can say I'm extremely extremely courageous. When I trade in that Rolex, I bought a $12,000 Breitling watch to wear wrestling patients in the ER. And I thought to myself, what the [expletive] are you doing?

Conversation

PJ: Hey fam, welcome to another episode of the Mastering Military Transition Series of the Prize Podcast. Today we have with us uh Adam Banotai, former Marine, um did several combat deployments, firefighter, uh nurse, and then um also started doing weightlifting. Powerlifting, right?

Adam: Some powerlifting, some some online coaching. Yeah.

PJ: Yeah. Yeah. So, I'm actually let him do a little bit of an introduction. Um just trying some new things here. And um so just real quick two minute, who are you?

Adam: Uh so you you introduced me, Adam Banotai. I graduated from here Alltown Pennsylvania 2001. Uh enlisted in the Marine Corps. Lifelong dream. Wanted to be a Marine. First Marine in my family. Uh infantry uh was my always my choice. Probably like a lot of little boys growing up wanted to uh to do that. I was actually at boot camp when 9/11 happened about my ninth week. Um no idea how severe it was. I thought maybe a dozen people.

They cut off our mail and everything.

PJ: Wow.

Adam: So came home, found out how severe that was. My whole intent with enlisting when there was no war was if there is war, I would rather go fight than my brother, my mom, my dad, my cousins, my friends and I would rather fight over there, wherever there is, than here. Um, so that was my kind of patriotic or noble intent and it worked out that way. I ended up going to Iraq uh in April of 03, beginning of the war up in Mosul and then Fallujah in 2004 for Phantom Fury.

Um I got out in 2005 after that and um became a firefighter, worked in a rescue engine for 13 years, went to nursing school in critical care, got a master's degree. Um tried to replicate the things I did in the Marine Corps like we will um talk more about.

PJ: Yeah.

Adam: And um it's been quite a journey. Um but here I am.

PJ: Yeah. So

that is quite a journey. It's quite a roller coaster ride too, my friend.

Um so thank you for that. I appreciate it. Uh, and I want to paraphrase this entire thing. Um, this is not about war stories. Um, right here we're we're going to kind of dig into some of the nitty-g gritties as I guess we're used to a bit on the show, but um, you know, also taking some actionable things of from your life and that you're still experiencing right now and seeing if we can translate those to to the audience here. So, I'm just kind of starting off, you know, when you when you got out.

So, I want to start here actually. When you got out, when did you realize that the civilian life was not going to be the same as the Marine Corps?

Adam: Uh, maybe about 20 ft outside the main gate at Pink Loun. Uh, no, not quite that early on, but I I think I realized it earlier than I admitted.

I think very early on, I'm talking weeks even maybe after that terminal leave wore off, um, I noticed something was off. The problem for me in my situation, I had gotten back from Fallujah in Iraq in January and I was out of the Marine Corps in July. But those six months, we had Purple Heart formations every Friday for months. We had wounded guys everywhere. We had valor awards given out every seemingly every other day. So, while I was still in the Marine Corps, I was also still in kind of a combat mindset because everything we did and talked about was combat related. I remember cleaning a weapon and seeing my friend's blood still on the weapon from months prior.

So, I never really left that environment until I actually got home. So, even though I was home from war for 6 months, it wasn't until I was home in Pennsylvania, separated from all of that. And I I say that because friends of mine that are still in that are like sergeant- majors, they haven't felt it yet because they have been in the entire time. So now they're going to get out at 45 46 years old and they're going to experience the same troubles that I did or adaptations uh I had at 22 and 23. And I I don't know which is more difficult, the

length of time that they put in or the um naivity, immaturity, emotional immaturity that I had at, you know, my early 20s. Um, so I I did notice early on how when did I admit that I was struggling with the difference or maybe missed the Marine Corps. I would say it wasn't until I got into the civilian workforce. And maybe we'll get into it, but uh maybe it was also my chosen career path being in healthcare. Um, I'm not sure that was most in line with the infantry and combat in the Marine Corps. um or maybe it was nursing as opposed to maybe going into medicine or another component

of um healthcare. But I will say many people will be maybe surprised firefighting didn't do it for me. It did not bring back the same feelings. It didn't scratch the itch at all.

PJ: So would you would you say that like it was almost flat in feeling as opposed to what you were experiencing in the Marines?

Adam: Yeah. when I so I and maybe it's because I always wanted to be a Marine. Like it was a lifelong dream. I woke up every morning, put my boots on, and this is the greatest [expletive] job in the world.

PJ: Wow.

Adam: Um and it's like uh that movie Fury with uh uh Brad Pitt when they're in the tank and they're they're about to get [expletive] killed. Like they're getting sworn by Nazis and they're just sitting there to themselves like best job I ever [expletive] had because it was miserable, dangerous, going to cut their lives short. They wouldn't trade it for the world. And that's how the Marine Corps was for me. So coming from that to a job,

even though I kind of liked it, I didn't love it. So it didn't do it for me. And then my mom of all people was like, "Adam, most people don't like their jobs. They hate it."

PJ: Yeah.

Adam: You were in a position where you loved your job. You are biased. You need to understand if you kind of like your job a little bit, you're ahead of most people.

And I was like,

I don't think so. That's just not going to work for me because I I have an experience. I have I have a standard and that standard was set by the Marine Corps in many ways, but part of it was I needed that fulfillment, that purpose, that calling, that passion that the Marine Corps brought. Firefighting, nursing, it it didn't do it for me. And I think I noticed I had an itch I couldn't scratch. I felt emotionally and mentally restless.

PJ: Yeah.

Adam: And that's when I knew something's up beyond just coming home. I want to caveat one thing though, too. When I came home, I came home from combat as well at the same time. Now, a veteran now that is uh EASing out of the military after four years of civilian time, I do think they're going to have similar struggles as our combat veterans.

PJ: Absolutely.

Adam: Because there is that transition period, that adjustment. You're in a new tribe or society, period of discovery, but you also do not have some of the other issues that the combat veterans have kind of compounding that. So, all kinds of difficult situations. Um just very uh situationally dependent, of course, as the Marine Corps likes to say. situation dictates, right?

PJ: Well, I think I think what you're touching on here and I think it's really really common and actually I even see this in civilian world too is is the idea well letting you know or trying to replace a way of being with a job

and that that doesn't mix. You know what I mean? And like even what you just pointed out, right? Someone getting out of the military now, even though they may not have been in combat,

there's still an indoctrination that happens when you're in the military, right? eating and breathing and everything else, right?

Adam: And we love the Marine Corps, but I'll be the first to say that's any branch, too.

PJ: It is

Adam: Army, Navy, Air Force, Marine Corps, Coast Guard. You put the uniform on, you wear it for four years, you you learn the

traditions, the culture. You're you're a part of something. It'd be like going and playing Penn State football for four years and not being changed by that culture. You're going to carry that with you forever. I mean, we are

I met guys that were 60 years old that told stories about Joe Paterno. Absolutely. You know, back and that's how formative those four years were. So,

yeah. any branch, any MOS, any job, I think, is definitely going to run into those those challenges.

PJ: So, if you had to put your finger on it specifically, what what did the Marines give you that nothing else has been able to replicate?

Adam: Pride,

purpose. I mean, I'll say this to everybody else. Maybe they won't understand. They're going to roll their eyes. You won't. You'll understand. We're the best. There's something to be said about being the [expletive] best. M

like you could play in the NFL or you could be Tom Brady. You could you could dunk a basketball or you could be Michael Jordan. We were [expletive] Michael Jordan,

you know. Um and and part of that despite being Michael Jordan and and being the best at what we do, um when I was in

Iraq was front page news for everything every day. So when I was over in Fallujah,

I mean we had New York Times, New York Post, Washington Post, CNN, Fox, we had every possible major media with us. So that kind of amps you up like it it it gives you a little bit of arrogance knowing like we the world is watching what we are doing.

PJ: Absolutely.

Adam: You know and um and I just think that's really really powerful.

PJ: So when we were talking the other day, you know, one of the things that I heard you say that that gave me pause was you know you you said that you actually miss combat. What what about that do you miss?

Adam: Again, the purpose, the knowing that you are being relied on, not and people will usually think country. You're fighting for your country. And did I? Yes. But I didn't choose Iraq. I didn't choose Fallujah. I didn't choose any of these things. What I could choose is how I performed to protect and defend the guy to my left and to my right. They were counting on me. I had 17 Marines counting on me to lead them. Um, and that is what I missed. that higher calling. Um, and then we can also say there is something to be said about the adrenaline.

You'll never feel so alive as when you're about to die. There's multiple moments where I thought the next moment I'm going to be dead. And I told you that day I felt the breeze of the RPK machine gun rounds passed by my face at one point. Not the crack, not not the pop, not the crack, the breeze, the wind like and and that's something you just can't fathom until you experience it. And once you experience it, you're like, "Holy [expletive] that was [expletive] badass." Like, um, and I've I've met powerlifterss actually that have been the same way that they don't feel they they don't take lifting serious until the weight is heavy enough that it could seriously injure them or kill them.

PJ: Yeah.

Adam: And then they're like, "Yeah, now it's time to boogie."

You know, they love it. They love that that life or death. Or I snowboard guys ripping down the mountain snowboarding. If they lose an edge, they're going to [expletive] themselves up. Like, and they love it because that's what combat is. you're living on the edge. Um the Marine Corps is, you know, with the tip of the spear. Something you said, we're all fighting for America, but when you're at the pointy end of the tip and you're the one hooking and jab and pulling the trigger,

it's it's a powerful feeling, especially for an early 20s young man who's grown up reading about Spartans and the 300

— full of testosterone

Adam: and you know, World War II. That's that's a very powerful feeling.

PJ: Yeah. So, okay. So, firefighting, powerlifting, nursing. Were you looking for that same feeling?

Adam: Oh, 100%. Um, and I'll tell you, my first house fire, I came in, I I pulled the hose, I run up the steps, fires blowing out, uh, waiting for the water, the ceiling started to fall on my head from above. I'm like, oh. And I thought to myself, this is nowhere near as scary as a firefight. I'd rather be in a gunfight any day. Like, this is nothing. Like, this isn't even fun. this is like whatever. Um, and I knew right then and there firefighting was just not going to match it.

But it wasn't even just the job that that part of it. It was the the culture, the aspir. And I think firefighting, you still go home at the end of the day.

PJ: Sure.

Adam: When you're in Iraq or Afghanistan, when you're at the barracks, you you're living it. You know, you're at the barracks with the boys 24/7. The only thing that changes whether they wear a uniform or shorts and a t-shirt. Um, firefighting is very close, but we're still going home. We still have our families. We we still are individuals. It is not a it's not as a there's not as much a esprit de corps in the fire department as um the military. I think I would equate the military to again Penn State football.

Like there is a level of pride playing for Penn State representing that organization probably more so than a professional organization where you're getting paid. And that's that's what I equate the military to. Um, nursing. There was probably more actual adrenaline in nursing in the trauma bay and and critical situations than firefighting because firefighting was very rudimentary. It didn't take a lot of critical thinking.

— There's the fire. Here's the water.

Adam: You know what to do, right? But if you call me in the room and I see, you know, a heart rate of this, a blood pressure of that, they're unconscious, we got blood all over, like what is the problem? What is going on? And it takes experience, a level of calm. I mean, it takes it that I enjoyed. It made me feel like we're starting to get shot at and the boys are asking, "What do we do?" Someone, "Adam, Adam, Adam, my patient's crashing. What do I do?" And I walk in the room, I look around, I'm like, "Okay, this is what's happening. This is what we're going to do." That was the closest I got to replicating it. That that crunchtime decision because it required thought, you know?

PJ: Yeah. Uh, crisis management.

Adam: Yeah. Critical thinking, crisis management. that that um I guess I would say I enjoy pressure. I enjoy clutch. I'm the guy that doesn't write the the research paper until it's due in two days.

PJ: Yeah.

Adam: Because I enjoy that like let's get this [expletive] done. Like let's just you know.

PJ: So let me ask you and I don't I mean I'm curious to know if this is a now thing even because like at what point do you realize that you know you're chasing a feeling instead of choosing a direction?

Adam: um probably when I traded in my Porsche uh and sold my Rolex. And that sounds crazy. Why am I bringing up these these expensive possessions? Because I was very fortunate between, you know, my careers. I was making good money and I was able to pursue whatever guilty pleasures I had. And I I enjoy watches and cars and I would have the dream car, right? And I would buy it and I loved it for six months and then I would trade it in for another one.

PJ: Mhm.

Adam: And I loved it. It was like the the pinnacle. And then I traded in for six months. And the same thing with the watches. And then when I trade in that Rolex, I bought a $12,000 Breitling watch to wear wrestling patients in the ER. And I thought to myself, what the [expletive] are you doing?

PJ: Yeah.

Adam: Why? And it's not that I couldn't afford it. It's like, why do I need to afford it? Then I realized I was at the time I knew I I said I was searching or that I was drowning. I was trying to tread water. And I was looking at these things as the one thing that would give me fulfillment uh that I had been lacking and I just couldn't get it. Um and and that's when I think I really realized like I was I was dopamine seek seeking.

PJ: Yes.

Adam: Uh I wasn't a big game. I played poker for a little while. I was successful with that but I wasn't sports better. Nothing in the casinos. No street racing kind of things. But those two like the possessions were were dopamine seeking for sure. And that's when I realized like something is driving this.

PJ: M. And what happens when life slows down?

Adam: I don't know. I'll tell you when it does. I I I live my So, one of my favorite movies is is The Fast and the Furious. I live my life a quarter mile at a time,

— right? Forever.

Adam: But, you know, in in a way, like I live my life balls to the wall. This is probably the first I'm turning 43 this month. This is probably the first I'm slowing down and taking it in. I lack presence. Um, I'm always thinking of the next thing. I I got a job. I want to find out what certifica certification I can get. What do I need to get promoted at that job?

Um I've been on vacations where I'm driving to the resort looking up the flights for the next vacation. And that's funny, but it's not. Yeah.

I wasn't present. I I I lack some memories from that because I was too focused on like what's next.

And again, the dopamine seeking the the something is missing. And I'd say I didn't know what it was. And now at least I don't have the solution, but at least I recognize that's what happening what is happening now.

PJ: Yeah, sure. First step.

Adam: So I'd still say I live life faster than the average person, but I have greatly slowed down. Um I mean there was a time I was doing 48 hours a week at the fire department, 24 hours a week uh in the ICU, teaching 24 hours a week and taking classes at night. Like I don't even know how I did it, but I know I did it easily. like I didn't have a problem doing it um at the time, but now I look back and see like I was I was I was going too fast, you know, and that's probably why

— there's always a trade, right?

Adam: Mhm. But I hit the tree. Yeah.

PJ: Yeah, man. Uh it's it's funny. We actually we have a bit of that in common. So, I'm I'm picking up what you're putting down and there's always a cost. Um, going back to a bit of identity and we talked about this last time, right? Where I think that a lot of people are looking outside to define who they are.

Adam: Yeah. Oh, yeah.

PJ: You know what I mean? I am a marine. I am an engineer. I am a father or mother. Right. The hard part about something like that is it's fragile because as soon as it's taken away,

Adam: 100%

PJ: it's gone. And then who are we?

Adam: Mhm. And that's what I said this too and this is the best way I can put it. That is me. When you take the Marine Corps away, I lose my identity. And I liken it and I told you this is the only time anyone is ever going to compare me to Michael Jordan. But I am like Michael Jordan. Michael Jordan knew how to be Michael Jordan, the basketball player, the greatest, the dunker, the, you know, the champion. But when he aged and it was time to retire, he realized he did not know how to be Mike.

PJ: That's right.

Adam: He couldn't sit at home. me. I mean, the guy had billions of dollars, could do anything. And he's like, I don't want to do this. I just want to play some basketball again. And that was me. I left the Marine Corps and I was like, I could do anything. I got the GI Bill. I got money. I can live anywhere trouble. I don't want to do that. I want someone to tell me the gear list to go to the next deployment. Like, why can't anyone just do that for me?

Um, so I had lost my identity. And that's what I was was definitely seeking, a new identity. And you're right. I think a lot of external validation. I think people in general nowadays, social media is bad in that. But I think veterans are also bad because we get a lot of external validation when you wear the uniform. Thank you for your service. Yellow ribbon. Can I give you 10% discount on your your meal at Texas Roadhouse? These things. And even if you don't, you know,

PJ: that Bloomin' Onion though,

Adam: it's like it it starts to each one is it adds up. you start to, you know, raise your shoulders a little bit, have a little more pride, and I think it can lead to some entitlement for veterans. Um, but I don't know if that exactly answered your question. Um, I kind of got rambling there, so

PJ: No, you're good, my friend. Um, I I guess what I'm getting at here is is this is very common, as you're pointing out. It's and it isn't even just common to the military. It is in in the world these days looking outside externally for validation to define who we are. And the hard part is is that's a fragile thing to do.

Adam: I don't want to interrupt you, but I'm going to.

PJ: Yeah. Go ahead.

What's up?

Adam: That's it. Yes. The external validation. And I noticed it with myself.

In the military, everybody was like saying how great Adam is, how great the Marines are, how great you guys fighting for us are. And I mean, in the civilian world, people are a lot more critical of each other.

PJ: Yeah.

Adam: You know, judgmental. They don't care if your dog just died or you're not feeling well today. Um they don't care about your education, your background. they're going to judge you. Um, and I and I think almost we take that we get very defensive. We take it very personal. We're not used to that. Um, and it and it stings us and it I think also drives us to seek more external validation. The more I feel critiqued by someone, the more I want someone else to tell me how great I am,

PJ: right?

Adam: Um, and I've seen that too in even a number of friends of mine and myself in relationships. You know, we don't feel handsome or attractive or fun or cool on my own. So, I need the pretty girl to tell me that I'm handsome and fun and cool. And if the pretty girl goes away or stops telling me that I'm cool, I'm in crisis again. I lost that identity because I don't actually think I'm cool and fun and handsome. I only think that because you are telling me so. So, when you go away, I'm lost in the [expletive] sauce. And that is what happened to me

through romantic relationships, friendships, work relationships, careers. Like I was so into that thing. That's who I was until it went away and then I was no one again

and I was never comfortable being myself in my own skin. I needed the identity externally and I

this is the first I don't think I have an external identity and I'm it's an interesting situation. I'm kind of sitting it figuratively thinking like who am I and what am I gonna do

and I don't really know which is interesting for a control freak like myself.

PJ: Yeah. How about that?

There could be some fear there. I'm sure.

Adam: Oh yeah. Absolutely.

PJ: So you know something else that I find very interesting is is in the military world, you know, other people are recognizing when we do things, right? It's always, you know, that you know, Adam did this and and you know, reaching out and and recognizing other people for awards, whatever it may be. in the civilian world, you usually have to talk about it or else it didn't happen,

which is a huge shift in paradigm and in mindset when it comes to um a veteran. So like I can understand this even even from like a a training aspect. We were being trained to seek that external validation.

Adam: Yeah.

PJ: Um

which serves a great purpose, right? But it also hurts us as you just

Adam: I mean look at our uniform. I mean, ribbons and metals and chevrons. Exactly. Eagle globe anchors and hash marks. I I don't really need to know much about you. If you have your dress blues on, I'll look at you and I'll I'll know everything I need to know.

PJ: Right.

Adam: Um but yeah, in the civilian world, nobody's looking at my scrubs knowing like how good a nurse I am, how long I've been a nurse or what, you know? Um and sometimes I think I've been guilty of like, don't you know who I am?

PJ: Yeah.

Adam: Don't you know what I have done or where I have been?

Like you wouldn't be second guessing me. you would be saying that if you did, but of course they don't like how could they, right? It's it's I don't that's I think some of the entitlement or I mean not entitlement is probably not the right word situation. I think that's where some of the feelings come from from the veterans.

PJ: So when Okay. So when you went to be a firefighter was what specifically were you seeking at that time?

Adam: A job. Um

— just a job.

Adam: Employment, money, benefit. Uh, no. I I So, I had two friends that were on the job already, encouraged me to do it. I thought it was I thought it was what everybody thinks a firefighter is. I didn't really know much about the profession other than, you know, the TV shows or career day when you're in elementary school. Um, it seemed cool. They were like, "No, it's a great job. You could be a nurse and do this, too." Um, and then I thought about it and was like, "Oh, yeah, esprit de corps uniform.

You know, it's going to be that environment again. And it's going to sound funny and it's going to sound funny to people that are not Marines. And I am intentionally throwing some shade at like the Army and your long hair or your sloppy uniforms because that's what the fire department wants. You know, as a Marine,

PJ: yeah.

Adam: When you walk out and you go to Wawa and you see one of the n national guardsman's in their camies, which we are not allowed to wear,

— we weren't allowed to do

Adam: out and then it's like long hair, their cover is like pulled down like a baseball hat over their eyes. You look at them, you're like, he's sloppy. But what the heck? Like, and that's how the fire department was. It was people that were overweight, lazy, like to take naps, didn't tuck their faded t-shirt into their torn shorts, complained about having to do calls. And look, Marines are complainers. Like, you know, we don't want to clean weapons. We don't want to field day. We don't want I get it. So, that part was fine. But

I felt the overwhelming majority lacked the esprit de corps in the unit. Pride.

It was a culture shock. And I was like, "We don't do it this way in the Marine Corps." And my buddy finally was like, "Shut the [expletive] up. This isn't the Marine Corps. We don't do it this way here." And my first response was, "Well, we should do it this way here because we're better than you guys." And he was in the Air Force.

But it took me a little bit to realize like, "No, the things that work in the military are not going to work apples for apples in this. It's we can't expect that." But I did think there was a lot of opportunity missed to take the positives that we have in the military and bring them into our paramilitary organizations, the police departments, fire departments, EMS, healthcare, so forth. I think I think we really missed the boat on that, which I don't understand why because so many of our first responders are veterans.

PJ: Yeah.

Adam: So, I'm not really

PJ: Well, there's a give and take. There's a give and take. I mean, you have some people saying, "Well, if I wanted to still live the military life, I would have stayed in the military." um which isn't always the case. Yeah.

But but you do hear it. What about powerlifting? What did what did you expect that to give you and what did it not give you?

Adam: Um healthy joints. It did not give me.

PJ: Yeah. Well, I bet

Marine Corps also didn't give you that.

Adam: Tendonitis I have right now. Um uh the best thing about powerlifting, it's objective, not subjective. Bodybuilding, you go up on stage and someone is telling you you look better than someone else. It's opinion based um power thing. Either I lifted more weight than you or I did not.

PJ: Yeah.

Adam: Either I lifted it or I failed. Like there's there's not a lot of subjectivity. So I like that. I liked it. Was a very are there world records? Sure. But there's my personal records. Like I'm not going to be like I'm never going to deadlift 1,000 pounds, but if five years from now, you know, I still put five more pounds. That's progress, you know, and that could be at any age. Um, and there was when I got into it, there was the underground cult nature of the sport, you know. Um, social media has made a lot more popular, you know, there's something I wanted to do something edgy,

you know, hardcore tough, all the testosterone fil machismo kind of thing, you know.

PJ: Yeah,

Adam: those those were my superheroes growing up, the professional wrestlers, you know, the the Lex Lugers and Ultimate Warrior types, you know, they were a big muscular guy, so I I wanted to be like that.

PJ: Interesting. and nursing. What did you expect that to give you and how how did it miss the mark?

Adam: I think I thought nursing would give me the satisfaction that the Marine Corps did.

PJ: Why though? What specifically?

Adam: I don't want to offend any career path where um I looked at nursing as a profession as a career not a job.

PJ: Yeah.

Adam: Um and when I say profession I don't I mean it in like a as a professional um formerly formally educated licensed you know governed. We have governing bodies. Um it just was proper you know a proper career. Mhm.

Um, and it was a little more white collar, you know, as opposed to firefighting, which was more bluecollar. I'm not a hands-on guy. I'm not a mechanic. I can't fix anything. I'm not good with tools other than, you know, I took the sledgehammer or the axe because I just bash through the wall. All these other guys are using these intricate things. I'm like, I'm not doing that. So, nursing was my way to be technical, critical think. I found I enjoyed the science, the challenge of it.

I could I wanted to outsmart your disease. I wanted you to pick up on a nuance from a very small sign or symptom or trend to see that you were doing better or worse that maybe other people would have missed. I think nursing was driven by my arrogance. Um I I saw it as a way I could definitively be the best.

I knew I could be really really good. And when I went to grad school, same way. Nursing, first of all, the nursing was very easy for me. I didn't really go to class. I pretty much just taught myself. I didn't study a lot. I didn't have to. I just it was easy for me. Grad school was very easy. Grad school was easier than undergrad for me. Grad school wasn't hard enough. That's why I left it the first time. So that's where one way where nursing missed the mark.

Um it wasn't hard enough. We um it's too nursing is too much of a uh happy golucky profession. At least it was. And I I think um we look at our physicians as the more hardnosed healthcare

providers.

Yeah. And I think that probably would have been the better role for me.

PJ: Interesting. Okay.

Adam: The reason I didn't tangent that's like 9 10 15 years of education. You need to have that long-term vision. Could I do it the work? Yes. Am I smart enough? Yeah. Do I have that long term? Come in for nine years. Uh I don't know.

You know, nursing was a way to do that in increments. You know, I I got a two-year degree, then I got a bachelor's, then I got a master's and you know, along the way. But I do regret nursing. I think I would have I I don't think healthcare is what I would have wanted or should have done unless it was a physician. Um nursing is passive aggressive.

PJ: Well, I mean there's there's a level of honesty and forth right that we bring as Marines that is not always easy to be handled around well a lot of civilians really.

Adam: Well, you know what? No, that's a perfect thing. There was an instance where I that forthrightness and the past aggressiveness that we were talking about came in got report nurse did not give a medicine at like 6:00. This was now like 7:15. Hey, did you give this medicine? No. Hey, can you make sure you give it? It's like timesensitive, but don't worry about it. I'll give it today. She's like, "Oh, yeah." Little did I know, weeks later, I got called into the manager's office because that nurse complained to somebody else that I was too assertive.

I made them feel bad. I was critiquing their practice. All I said is, "Did you give the medicine? No worries. I'll do it. Can you just make sure you give it next time?" And that was too much for them. But what happened was she told someone and then they emailed and they emailed and they emailed and they emailed

until like three four weeks and they're asking I'm like wait what

who it was so insignificant to me and that really frustrated me like

and you know how she could have avoided that given the [expletive] medicine.

PJ: Yeah.

Adam: Do your job and I don't have to ask you did you do your job and hey what would what would Gunny say if he had to ask you if you did your job? You know it probably wouldn't have been as

gentle of a conversation as I had. You might get one.

Yeah. So if she thought I was being direct, she didn't really know what direct was.

Yeah. But that was me not being prepared or I didn't read the room when I looked at nursing. I didn't realize maybe the I saw all the benefits maybe not the challenges I would have as an not as the profession but as an individual going into the profession.

PJ: Well, you know, you bring up an actually a really interesting point. This was actually what I struggled the most with in getting out was not knowing how to speak to civilians. Like that took me a good year or so where I was like, "Oh, damn." Like I didn't realize I was this jacked up when it came just to trying to talk to a person. You know what I mean? which

Adam: and that's where the fire department was a little bit better. The powerlifting was really good.

I'm sure Marines, you know, that's how it is. You know, the way I talked on a field op or bitched at my Marines was the same way I did at the firehouse or in the gym when my buddies slacking off and you know

um so yeah, that's that's pretty interesting. But that's probably what drew me to those those things.

PJ: Well, there's there's an interesting point though here, right? No job is meant to carry the weight that the Marine carried for you. Like they don't they're not synonymous. You're you're literally comparing comparing apples to oranges. Apples to like freaking pumpkins, you know? It's like

Adam: Yeah. There's nothing really that's going to compare to the military. And again, my personal situation to combat and not just to combat, but Fallujah in Phantom Fury was like the largest urban combat we had in like 70 some years at the time. you know, we had multiple medals of honor given out, you know, um I mean half my Marines were wounded in in a 30 minute span. Uh I want to say I was one of I think seven of the platoon not to be wounded. So it was a pretty dramatic it would be like I I don't want to say I'm on this level, but when I think back to the World War II guys, I'm like how did you go to Normandy and come home?

How did you go to Iwo Jima Okinawa? How did you survive Pearl Harbor and come home? because they didn't have all the advantages we have now as healthcare. There was no PTSD. There was no SSRI or therapy.

PJ: Yeah.

Adam: You know, you were looked down on. You came home and you you had nightmares or cried about what you saw. You were broken, damaged, put in an asylum, a straight jacket,

you know. So, how they did that, I don't know. But, um, that's kind of what Fallujah was. And that's just a different experience than four years in peace time or uh if I had only come home after my first combat deployment, my transition would have been vastly different than coming home from Fallujah.

PJ: Why?

Adam: I saw a lot less combat, a lot less death. I didn't kill anyone the first time. Um and that's not to say like I didn't I can't notice and say, "Oh, these things were easy the first time and these things were hard the second time." I just know what I went through was just different, unique,

and you what's the saying? Um, a man, the same man can't step foot in the river twice. It'll be a different river.

PJ: Yes.

Adam: And he'll be a different man.

PJ: That's right.

Adam: Well, and that's kind of how I look at, you know, my experiences. Like I

obviously I was going to be different coming home from Fallujah than the first deployment. How could I not be?

PJ: Yeah. So fast forwarding to you know I don't know like even now like what would you say you know your your nervous system like how has it been affected?

Adam: My nervous system I'll talk let's my nervous system is shot um in a lot of ways but I think it is a cumulative effect. I'm not going to blame the military war or PTSD or anything like that solely for it. the military and everything I did and saw played a role. Yes. So did the, you know, 23-week old baby I did CPR on, the fentanyl overdose babies that I had to take care of, the charred body that I pulled out of a fire, the firefighting, the nursing, just the amount the the work also the stress I put on myself, the high the pressure and high standard I set.

I was on the go all the time. Like I didn't have an off switch. And then combine that with copious amounts of caffeine and pre-workouts, everything to fuel my lifting, fuel my uh the energy I need for all the the work I'm doing. Um yeah, I would say my adrenals are shot. And I've seen that happen in usually we see it more with tier one guys, like your seals. I know one seal personally that

go go go until he just couldn't go. And there was no taper off, it was fall off a cliff. Um because when your adrenals stop producing, you know, you just

— that's the end.

Adam: You go into that adrenal crisis and the ends bad. Um I'm in the best place I've been since coming home.

— Now, let me So, what does a shot sympathetic nervous system fight or flight look like?

Adam: Yeah. So, I'll tell you. Um, as it got worse, as I got more fried, my emotions were more difficult to control. And a lot of people think that just means anger. Not anger. You know what the biggest one for me is? I would cry a lot. I would get sad and emotional. And I'm kind of an emotional guy, but like it would be really easy. Inappropriate would be not proportional. The response I'd get too sad watching a show or I'd want to tell tell my dog how much I loved her and next thing you know, I got tears running down my face. like that.

What are you doing? And I'm not feeling sad. So, I'm like, why am I upset? I don't feel this. Or um the other day walking the dog, some little fufu thing rips off of its leash and runs up and jumps up on my chest and is snarling at my dog. And I was like livid. But I was like, "Okay, tamp it down." Like, it's it's all right. Like, you don't need to you don't got to go zero to 100. And not just 0 to 100 calm to angry, but 0 to 100 calm to happy, excited, exuberant, zero to 100 to sad and distraught.

Um, a very a difficulty sitting in those emotions, feeling an emotion and not knowing what to do about it. I'm so upset because I didn't get that job that I really wanted. Instead of just like, oh, okay, that's that's no good. It turns into doom and gloom. I'm the worst person. Life sucks. What am I going to do? snowballing of spots, um, awfulizing the situation. It's like, uh, a fried sympathetic nervous system is like your brain is a hamster wheel and the hamster just drank a couple of Red Bulls.

That's what a fried sympathetic nervous system feels like to me. Overexited. And for those that maybe aren't familiar, fight or flight, when we're conf confronted with a a tiger that is trying to eat us, our brain is going to respond to defend ourselves and fight, you know, flood um open our bronchules so we can breathe more oxygen, flood blood, nutrient rich blood to our quads and our arms so we can run or we can punch and we can fight.

Um our heart rate is going to elevate. Um, but then we can also go into flight where some of those same things happen, but we're going to run away. We're not going to fight. And that's why some folks they lose their temper and they get angry and mad, want to fight, and some cry and crawl up into a ball. Um,

PJ: how do you deal with that when that sort of thing happens?

Adam: I'll let you know when I find out. Medication, therapy.

— Uh, no. But

PJ: what's been effective?

Adam: Medication. therapy is so here's my prof professional and personal opinion for anyone with mental health issues not just PTSD or veterans medication alone will not fix you and I don't think therapy alone will fix you yes

I think the medic what happened to me I think is the best example

the medication gave me time it gave me a pause we talk about you need to respond don't react I was very reactive you spoke I respond easily I'm the guy that if my phone dings for a text message. I got to fire a message back. I can't let that sit and think for 30 minutes cuz what if I forget? What if I don't tell you? What if you're wondering why didn't I answer? I was reactive. The medication gave me a split second in my mind to say, "Okay, yeah, I'll text him back. This is what I'm going to say." Or, "Oh, the dog ran up on us. All right, not a big deal."

PJ: Yeah.

Adam: And I could then implement the coping strategies or the things I learned through therapy. But to me, without that pause or that time, you can know all the best coping strategies. If you can't implement them, right, they're meaningless. Yeah. And that's what medication did for me. And

to anyone listening, you might go through four, five, six, 10, 12 medications because it's very unique. You know, uh, Zoloft is not going to affect me the same as it's going to affect you.

Um, so you got to find the right one. And people get really upset thinking like, I tried that medicine, it didn't do anything. It didn't work. No, you just didn't find the right one.

And the same thing with a therapist.

Um, you were talking about telling your deepest, darkest secrets and fears to a stranger.

That takes a lot of bravery on the person.

PJ: Yes.

Adam: But also a lot of trust. And I equate it to dating. How many people married their high school sweetheart?

Not very many. So, you had to date. You had to find out who you were comfortable with, what you liked, what what was important to you, your values, and then you find the right fit. Well, as you meet a therapist, you have to, is this a good fit? Do they speak my language? they have experience or understanding in what I'm going through.

So, you got to date a little bit with medications and with therapy and then dial it in and then you get married to them and that's when the real work starts. When you're married in with the right medication and the right therapist, you grind for a year, you start putting practice the the skills that are out there and I think that's when the progress really comes.

PJ: And where are you in that arc right now?

Adam: um the intermediate stage of the best I've ever been. The I had I started a new medication um that has helped. I've I found a really great therapist. I've gone through therapy a on and off for a while and it was probably like uh the relationship that you really liked but it something was missing. You just know what that's how the therapist where I could just full-fledged like sell out. and then I found this this therapist and I was able to and it's worked really well. I've learned a lot. Um,

PJ: and what would you say to the Marine getting out right now when they when you hear therapy and uh and you know how that goes um in the military? What would you say to them?

Adam: Therapy or admitting you need admitting you need help

PJ: yes both

Adam: is not weakness. Being too stubborn to seek help is weakness would be what I would say.

PJ: Why?

Adam: Um, well, let's say we're in Iraq and we're in a gunfight and it's my squad and we're getting a platoon of insurgents coming at us and we're fighting. We're starting to get our ass kicked. Um, and I'm just too proud to ask for QRF to come and help.

Well, we're going to [expletive] die because my pride got in the way.

PJ: Yeah.

Adam: Or I could swallow my pride and say, I thought I had this. I'm in over my head. I need help. Pick up the phone. Call for help. QRF comes with another 30 Marines with machine guns and now we win the day. That's therapy. You're It's the same thing. You're picking up the phone and saying, "I'm in over my head and I need some help." It's just are you calling Marines with guns or are you calling a therapist with a a DSM5 manual? Um but I I think that's both of them are fights, wars, war within the war overseas, you know.

Um and there's no shame in calling QRF. We all love the A10 flying over, you know, dropping bombs. We don't feel bad doing that. We're like, "Oh, there was only those five guys. Why did we call a bomb?" Like, no, we go at it. Take care of mental health the same way. If you realize you need help, sell out. You know, don't come at it with the the the least amount necessary to recover. Give it everything you got. You know, mental, physical, spiritual, therapy, medication, anything and everything.

PJ: Yeah. You know,

well, I think one of the things here too is like if I'm in if I'm in a firefight, right, it's not me thinking I'm broken if I'm being overwhelmed. Whereas I think that there's this stigma of like I think I'm broken now where if I say something someone's going to think I'm broken, which is just horseshit by the way. That doesn't mean you're broken. It is absolutely solvable. It just takes work.

Adam: Yeah. And that's and and I've said before, mental health, the the broken bone is a good metaphor for it. Um in one sense, and the sense of that is that it can heal. We do some work, the bone heals. No matter how bad the break it, if we cast it, pin it, rot, what it will heal in time. Um, so we need to, you know, we we might be broken or damaged, but we are recoverable. We are able to move on. We're, you know, I don't even want to say, you're right, broken is not the right word. You know, General Mattis um gave a speech, I I forget where he was at, but he talked about how he did not like the phrase post-traumatic stress.

He preferred post-traumatic growth. Yeah.

And he said the reason is because you went through something epic. Of course you're different. You don't go to war or survive an abusive relation, child abuse or any of these things. You don't go through that and not be different. Like that's crazy. Of course you're different. But Mattis said

different doesn't mean worse. All of us we always think and when I came home I experienced that. People would say, "Oh, Adam, my girlfriend, Adam, you're you're so different. I just want the old Adam back." And I'm like, "Fuck does that mean?

Mean, well, I am back. What am I not good enough now?" And he said, "You're different." But different could mean just different lateral. Or different could mean you're actually a better person because of that tragic thing you went through. So why are you laying around feeling sorry for yourself and that you're broken?

No. Or maybe you were broken, but what do they say about bones? You know, breaking it heals back stronger. That's right. You know, baseball players, Tommy John surgery. They rip up their elbow, they put the Tommy John, they throw faster.

PJ: Yeah.

— So yeah. Okay. You went through this really rookie year.

— Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. We're showing our age without but you know you you funky

— butt loving

Adam: you go through something terrible you come out stronger and that's kind of what the first firefight I was in did to me no matter what training I did I still didn't know for sure when it was real was I going to respond the way I needed to. So when the first firefight happened and I kicked ass I was like I know I got this.

PJ: Yeah. Absolutely.

Adam: You know and that

child fire. So you go through your traumatic situation, like I said, whether it was an abusive childhood or relationship or war or or anything, once you come out the other side of it, you can say, "Fuck yeah, like that [expletive] didn't get me."

Like, and now you can go on the next time something bad happens, you know, I can go through it again. I mean, I don't I hope you don't have to. Nobody wants to. And yeah, if you go through 15 million shitty things, it's going to eat at you. But when we're talking singular events, like there is some confidence from that trial by a fire. Like after the first firefight, I felt invincible. I thought there's no one's going to kill me.

Man, I just proved myself. And you know that woman that stands up to an abusive spouse and leaves, if she's got the guts to do that, like she can walk forward in life now knowing that she has the guts to stand up to anything. And the same thing for our veterans. You know,

you can stand up.

PJ: It takes a reframe though. Like it takes a particular reframe that one has to do to be to get there because not everyone will get to that spot. What what act like what guidance can you give to someone who maybe has gone through something and instead of taking the the frame that you're talking about, they took the frame of like, oh well, I'm just a piece of [expletive] or oh, I'm broken because I went through X, Y, or Z or oh, I'm like,

Adam: the easiest thing I would give you is you're [expletive] wrong.

And I say that because that was me. I lived in a victim mindset for a while. I had a couple of bad things, unfortunate things happen to me. Um I don't want to I mean they sucked and it was over a period of time but life sucks like shitty things happen to people you know I'm blessed to have both my parents alive still you know um I had bad stuff happen but my parents have died I have friends that both their parents have died or

or their sibling died or their I've worked with a guy he's my age be 43 his wife died

breast cancer so like um bad [expletive] happens we need to be able to handle that Um what was your question originally? I'm sorry. Oh, my advice to people.

PJ: Yeah. Yeah. Who maybe don't have that frame of mind.

Adam: Yeah. It was just that I I you're wrong. You can't live in this victim mindset. You have to live life, not let life happen to you is something that I read. Um and even if you are the victim, okay, now what? You can either stay right, you can stay the victim or you can say I am the v or I was the victim or I am the victim but no more. Today's a new day. I'm going to stand up and rebuild, you know. Um I would say that's and those that are struggling to do that I would introduce them to the term learned helplessness where you are been depressed or sad or stuck in a unfortunate circumstance for so long that has become comfortable.

PJ: Yeah. Absolutely. It's what you know

Adam: and it's weird that even though it is crappy

crappy is familiar. Yeah. So you're comfortable with it. Whereas happy is so unknown, so vague, so it's scary. And people would rather stay crappy than happy because at least it's the the the known.

PJ: It's familiar. Absolutely.

Adam: And that was me for a while, too. So I I would say the best thing you could do if you're feeling that way is

tell yourself you're wrong, even if you don't believe it, and then find some folks that can help you believe it. whether that is a a veterans group, a church group, a therapist, um just a book you could read. There's tons of great books out there. A mentor, a friend, someone that can help you do that cognitive reframe because we're all um guilty of losing the forest when we're focused on the single tree sometimes, you know. Um

PJ: you know, and if you don't have that, something else that you can do is is you can literally take and sit down and write the opposite of whatever that is. Oh, I'm a piece of [expletive] Well, I'm not a piece of [expletive] And then find two to three examples that would prove how you're not a piece of [expletive] whatever it may be.

Adam: And I think I found success in when I would do something like that is I wasn't quite sold that I wasn't a piece of [expletive]

PJ: Okay,

Adam: but I gave it a possibility. So, I would say, you know what, maybe you hate me

because I'm a piece of [expletive]

And then I could say, well, maybe you don't. Maybe you had a bad day. That's right.

Maybe you're tired. Maybe you're sick. Maybe it has nothing to do with me. And I just present

a dozen possibilities why this Yeah. poking holes in this in this theory. And as long as I can poke enough holes, I don't really need to believe what I'm saying is true. I just need to believe that it might not be true.

PJ: That's right. That there's possibility.

Adam: The possibility. Yeah. That there's hope. There's a chance.

Yeah. That's exactly as long as you're saying there's a chance. Okay. And I'm good then, you know. And that's that was that was powerful. I think a lot of it too is trial and error.

PJ: Yeah,

Adam: you got to find what works for you. And I don't want to scare anyone. They might be getting out now. I got out in 2005. It's 26.

I'm still learning the methods and the skills and the perspectives that are helping.

PJ: No, thank you for saying that. Actually, this is really important. Something I hear over and over again is is how the transition like getting out of the military is not a single point in time.

It is ongoing and will likely be ongoing for the rest of your life. That's actually a beautiful thing because the moment it stops is the moment you're dead. It's something that you have to look forward to. And you talk about becoming the best, becoming Michael Jordan. This is an area that you can become the best.

Adam: Yeah. There's if you frame it the right way, it's a whole new challenge, a new set of work. Um, and I think with veterans, it helps us that it's unique to us.

You know, it's our fight, our challenge. Obviously people as a whole all struggle with this but I just always was able to do things better identify more when it was like my people

you know lots of people over PTSD lots of people have PTSD and I hope all of them for whatever their causes are get help but something about going to a veteran's PTSD

sure you know or talking to another veteran that you know was in combat or something like that they it's uh

that that camaraderie I think really helps um more so than uh our civilian counterparts that don't have that. They don't have the team that they went through it with. The

PJ: absolutely

Adam: they might have a friend that was aware that they went through it or went through something a little sim they weren't there like we lived, ate and breathed everything together,

you know. Um and I think that's why the guys in the beginning when I talked about my friends that stayed in are going to have a little bit of a challenge because they're going to be 40ome years old and they're going to be like getting out and like a whole new set of friends, a whole new everything at that age. age and I

PJ: they'll have to find their tribe.

Adam: Yeah, they're going to have to find their tribe. But at 43 years old, I hope it doesn't take them 20 years like it did me cuz I don't want to see 50, 60 year old guys struggling like that.

PJ: Well, the cool part is is you get to offer that to them now.

Adam: Well,

you know,

I'll do what I can.

PJ: Well, so you know something that I've in the short time that I've known you, something that I've learned about you is is that you have an intensity.

You you want to be the best and this has likely served you in a lot of ways. I mean, you you you just said like you probably were a pretty damn good firefighter. You were probably pretty damn good at powerlifting. I mean, look at you. You're not exactly like tiny. Um, and then on top of that, you know, in nursing, you said that was that was easy and you wanted to go and be the best. And the mindset there that I heard was that you wanted to be the best against these diseases. You wanted to be able to fight something or outsmart something like that. Has there ever been a way that it hasn't served you?

Adam: the lack of presence. Um, I said the the memories missed. And when I say memories missed, it's not that I don't remember the event. Like, it's not a black hole. It's just I can't recall the emotion to the memory, like the feeling. I can, oh, that was such a that's a great meal we had,

but I don't remember like what it felt like to sit there and enjoy that meal or something. Um um there was definitely that adrenal you know that that sympathetic nervous system burnout. I think pushing the way I have has contributed to that. Um and I would say so I'm dabbling in writing a book uh and I tentatively just thought on top of my head from the battlefield to the bedside the cost of a life of service. And I don't really care about the book but that line there the cost of a life of service. is what has stuck with me about 34 35 years of combined service of my 43 years of living and that just you don't do that whether it's 34 years as a vet in the military a police officer a teacher a doctor you don't go through that and and accomplish that and not take like blows along the way um and I think it just other things had to go fall by the wayside and get sacrificed.

Relationships, family, my own creature comforts and happiness. Uh and I think the problem is I always was of the mindset one more after this I will slow down. But there was never an after this. There was always something new. Every mountain I climbed I found a new one. Every goal I accomplished which was literally every single goal I've accomplished everything I've ever wanted to accomplish. There's no goal I've truly wanted and not uh succeeded at. So yeah, I don't even right now the Super Bowl was on the other night.

I had a hard and it was a crappy game, but I had a hard time sitting still. I was like, I should be up doing something, reading like can't you just watch the game? Why do you got to watch the game and read a chapter in the book at the same time and like just relax and that's that's a challenge and I I need to get better at it still because if I don't I'm 43. I'm going to blink my eyes. I'm going to be 73.

PJ: That's right.

Adam: In the same situation. I don't I don't want that.

PJ: I I don't want that for you. So, okay. Um I've been there, my friend. I understand what you're saying. What do you do when something like that comes up? Like, do you have that inner dialogue? Is that what you have? Like, if you were watching the Super Bowl just the other day and you wanted to read a book, what did you do?

Adam: Read the book.

PJ: Is that what you did?

Adam: Um I'm I'm aware of these things. Some of it I've gotten better at. Some of it I have to actively like stop and just sit down. I'm like, or like sometimes I have to like give myself permission to do something. Like Adam, you know it's okay to do nothing. Like you can take a nap right now. That's okay. You don't have to feel guilty. Like you did all your responsibilities, all everything's taken care of. You have two hours to do nothing. If you want to close your eyes for 30 minutes, it's okay.

You know, so there's part of that. Um and part of it just learning that it's just who I am. You're just not going to you're not going to undo my character 43 years. All of it. Um, so I I think maybe a little more uh awareness and kind of um governing it or harnessing it

as opposed to letting it controlling the drive, not letting the drive control me trying to do.

PJ: So you're I mean you're you found medication, you've been going to therapy. Was what what was the defining point that made you decide to seek that out?

Adam: I put a gun to my head, pulled the trigger, and it clicked because I forgot the chamber around.

PJ: Wow. Um, and it was at that point that you were like, "Okay, it's it's time to do something about this."

Adam: Well, not at that that moment. I don't I don't I remember that when I did that. I don't remember everything from that night. Um, no, not immediately after. That's when I knew it probably couldn't get any worse than what it was.

PJ: So, you had to hit a rock bottom then.

Adam: Yeah, that was definitely that was rock bottom. All right. Um, in in a lot of ways the and the gun was the gun wasn't the rock bottom. The gun was a symptom of

PJ: Sure. Absolutely.

Adam: Um,

PJ: and it woke you up.

Jolted you at the very least.

Adam: Yeah, it did. It It took a couple of weeks afterwards. So I I I was probably living in a state of shock for a couple of weeks and then probably some bad depression still wanting to, you know, h I didn't I don't think it it was it was rough. It wasn't instantaneous. It was rough for about a month before I realized like like this is bad. Even still now when I say this out loud like maybe I wasn't as good of a marine as I thought. I brought the chamber around. Um but I guess good good thing. like pretty crazy.

PJ: So, what was the moment then that you're like, "Okay, I need to go do this." Because there's probably a strength, you already talked about this, a strength that you had to like overcome or a porcupine that you needed to swallow in order to actually go ask for help.

Adam: Yeah. Um what I I would I think maybe I once I realized the gravity like of doing what I had done and then I realized that I didn't want to die. I just didn't want to live how I was living or feel what I was feeling.

PJ: Well put my friend for real.

Adam: Um, I think that is when I realized I needed help and that's when I found the therapist that I did which was just pure dumb luck. Um, but when that I realized that it was that all-encompassing approach like I mentioned earlier, I I think I bought like four books on trauma. I messaged maybe a dozen therapists. Uh, contacted the VA for a psychiatry appointment. Um, started going to a veterans group. Um, so yeah, just that that all-encompassing approach because I knew I knew that's what was necessary.

I knew it was bad. You know, overwhelm. I I take with me what the Marine Corps preaches overwhelming fire superiority. So when I knew I had this problem, I wasn't just going to give it what I thought it needed to win. I was going to make sure there was no chance of losing.

PJ: Well, there's a trend here.

Adam: Yeah.

PJ: Again, it's served you in many capacities

and it's also likely hurt you.

Adam: Yeah. Oh, yeah.

PJ: And that's not a bad thing, right? We h we all have these things that that have served us in so many different ways, but are also unhealthy in others. And this is where the work is, right? Is being able to tease it apart and say, well, I'm going to keep this piece because this has served me and will continue to serve me, but this part of it will not. So, this needs to go bye-bye.

Adam: Yeah. And I sometimes I wonder like I worked with a brilliant surgeon. He's an army colonel. Got a really great probably best doctor I ever worked with. Brilliant. very very difficult to work with. Just harsh. I mean tempered very much like myself. So maybe that's what people say about me. But he was just he's tough, very demanding, very a perfectionist. Um but I as I got to know him, I saw how as great as he was at what he did, it came at a great cost to like his personal life and sacrifice.

PJ: Absolutely.

Adam: But I'm very confident saying he wouldn't do it any other way. like if it cost him his family life and he would choose his career and what he did. That's just his calling.

Um and uh

PJ: do you think there's a point in his life where he may think otherwise?

Adam: If so, I don't think he would ever admit it.

I don't think anyone that does that will.

Um whether it's the hedge fund manager or Elon Musk or a president or whoever

— Elon Musk does admit it.

Adam: anyone that that you know we need people like that that are that singularly focused that nothing matters other than work because I'm quite honest I don't want the surgeon operating on me that's got a balanced life

PJ: absolutely

Adam: I want him to be nothing but surgery the guy that's managing my 401k yeah I hope he lives breathes and eats finance I don't he doesn't need to be balanced and like going to the opera after work today like nah you know um so kind of funny we want that in people that do stuff for for us. But we don't always want to be that person that is doing it. But I kind of do. Um that's how I was as a Marine. And um you know, I wanted to be that guy.

I wanted to be the one with the hard job, the hard assignment, the the one people would say, I don't know, but Adam's doing it. And that's how you know that physician that I'm talking about, some my other friends that have done great things like,

PJ: so I'm going to borrow something that I've heard before that I'm still figuring out for myself what this means. But like Tony Robbins for instance talks about work life integration as opposed to work life balance because balance is the myth.

Yeah. and it's figuring out how to integrate it as a whole um so that it's serving itself and it's serving each other and the and the best that I've been able to do you know for me personally is like Prize the the company I'm building right is creating an environment based on the values that I personally want to live and then reinforcing that by hiring people bringing people on that also believe in those values then it becomes self- serving that's the closest I've been able to get um so I don't know if you have any thoughts on that where it's an integration as opposed to just trying Well, and I'm here. I'm trying to balance. I'm on this side.

Adam: Um, that's something that I could say I saw. That's the difference I saw in the fire department and the military. The fire department there was integration of the home life, family dynamic. You know, families were included in things. We had holiday parties. um all older middle not 18 to 22 year old adults older than that adults

um in the military though you have uh

PJ: well there is no balance in the military

Adam: right there's no balance it's all young people without families the mandatory fundays and family days like they're not really participating because they don't have a family they don't care they don't need it integrated and even the guys with families how integrated is your family over that eight-month deployment No,

that med float that Okinawa and I'm talking war. What about those school? Oh, Staff NCO Academy. Well, you're in Pendleton. You got to go over here, there, wherever. Your family's getting moved every three years when you're duty. I don't think there's any integration at all. If you're in the military, the service member's career is first and every single thing comes second.

PJ: Yes. Which is really hard in relationships, by the way.

Adam: Yeah. Yeah, it is. And I think you need to go in there whether you're the spouse or the the the service member knowing that nothing is more important than your career. Yeah.

And I think that's hard for some spouses and and leads to some of the dependopotamus type stuff where you know spouses are like what about me? Like I do a lot of [expletive] behind the scenes and they do

but you're still support personnel.

PJ: Yeah.

Adam: You're not the trigger puller. Um but yeah fire department it allows for that. There is that opportunity and that is a good thing for it. The reason it didn't I didn't like that is because it's not what I wanted. It's not where I came from. I didn't have the family.

So, I was still in the mode and mindset of of that singular focus. Is it possible? I don't I don't think anyone in the military can. In other aspects of life, I don't know. You can't do epic [expletive] and be balanced. You have to burn the ships, right?

PJ: Yeah, I agree with that.

Adam: And maybe you only got to burn the ships for six months. You don't have to do it for your whole life. or maybe your four-year degree, you do that and you get maybe where you bust your ass as a doctor.

I don't know. Probably not the case because my friends that are, you know, they busted their ass for like 13 years to become a surgeon and then day one as an attending, they got more [expletive] to do than they did when they were resident.

PJ: That's right.

Adam: So, like, congratulations, you finished. Now the real work starts.

PJ: That's right.

Adam: So, um, but I personally would choose I would change it. I would want the mindset that I have even knowing that it cost me things. But that's what I just want when I say the cost of a life of service. I don't want you to feel sorry for me.

PJ: No, sure.

Adam: I don't want you to I don't regret it per se. There are some decisions I made but along the way that could have softened the ride, but I wouldn't change the ride. Um

PJ: why?

Adam: Cuz I did epic [expletive] I can go through life or when I die, I can say I did things that very few people.

PJ: No, no, I hear I hear that. What about like the roller coaster of let's just say how intensity affected your life?

Adam: Yeah, but if I wasn't that intense, I don't think I would have accomplished what I did. And I will not trade my accomplishments for an easier life. I live the life I do

because of what I have done. And I know that. And if I had to go back and do everything again knowing what it would cost me,

it would suck. But I would do it. And I would do it so that others don't have to do it. Um, I live my life the way I did and go through what I did and do so my brother doesn't have to and lives the life he does. So when I say the cost of life of service, all I want is people to be aware. You don't do 16 years in the trauma bay and not walk away with, you know, remembering the machete coming out of the guy's chest.

That's not to say it it cries. I cry about it at night. I just I remember and I think of it. I can tell you about those babies. I could think of probably four or five babies that that were fentanyl overdoses. I don't It's just it comes with it, you know. Um and I I wouldn't change it. I would go through all those things. I just want people to know there's a cost to it. You know, there's a cost to being a professional athlete you on your body.

There's a cost to being a powerlifter, your joints. There's a cost to everything. And I think sometimes some some things with the glitz and the glamour or the prestige they overlook like oh doctor oh doctor so and so that's so great the white coat the p you know the title everything the number of physicians that score job satisfaction that they were satisfied in their profession and would choose it again is mostly in the 30 percentile range. So most doctors hate their [expletive] job.

PJ: Um

I think this actually comes back to the whole title thing. So, I'm curious and I love that you're saying you wouldn't trade it because I think that even like I agree with you. I've been through some shitty stuff, too. And when I look back on it, I also wouldn't trade it because it's made me who I am today. And I think what I would love to hear from you now is who are you today? And I don't want titles. I'm curious to know what values, what standards that you have that make Adam who Adam is.

Adam: Well, the interesting thing, while I wouldn't do it any different, anything I've done, I don't necessarily like what it did to me. I This is a challenge that I'm working on, but right now, I still feel I am a lesser version of myself than years past

because things have kind of affected me in a way.

Uh, and I don't I don't like that. Um, I liked who I was. um strong, confident, bordered on arrogant, um capable, and I still am all those things. It's just um maybe it's the sense of invincibility is gone.

Um mortality is now being seen. Maybe it's because of my age. You know, I'm going to be 43. You know, I'm on a down slope of midlife. You know, probably have less years in front of me than I do behind me. Um, so there's maybe that maybe some of the my biggest trauma is is not anything in Iraq. It's it was coming home. Um, and some of the things that happened after I did. So I I just I wouldn't change that. I would but who does it have me who am I am now? If you would have asked me maybe six months to a year ago, I would have said broken, damaged, weak,

um, a lot of negative selft talk. Um,

PJ: but you've redefined that.

Adam: We're in the process. I mean, when I say those things, I know I'm when I say weak, I'm stronger than most people.

PJ: Yeah.

Adam: The weakness I see is in relation to what I think I should be.

So, it's kind of weird. I can say like is such a dangerous word, man.

My therapist tells me to stop [expletive] myself.

PJ: Yeah.

— Stop [expletive] all over yourself.

— Yep. Yep.

Adam: Um but that's that's really it. Like I

Yeah. I I know how good of a person I am and I hear what everybody else thinks. I just that standard that drives me. I think I could should still do a little bit better in every I will never be satisfied with what I do for myself. That's a challenge. I always can do better or do more or give more. Um,

PJ: well, I think those are beautiful aspects, by the way. Sounds to me like you're giving.

Adam: Yeah. So, who am I? Uh, hardworking, resilient, strong, brave, courageous, um, you know, Marine Corps, JJDIDTIEBUCKLE, our leadership traits, decisive, um, loyal

on time, which I have not been.

Punctual. Yeah. Um, you know, and anytime I've would talk about the leadership traits, decisiveness is always something I was proud of. Um, I could still lead a fight down [expletive] Ali in Fallujah. I could still clear a house. I can still pull a trigger if I had to. Um, so that there's a strength to that. Um,

I know with there was a situation there's a firefighter. He was running his mouth, young Kai. Um, it was something he didn't have any real world experience on. And I got in his face a little bit and said, "You know, you're talking about this and that, but until you can look someone in the whites of their eyes and do what you have to do,

you don't know if you have what it takes."

PJ: Yeah.

Adam: I said, "I don't have that problem,

but you do." And he was like, "Fuck." Um, so I wouldn't change anything. I know who I am. I just um Yeah, all those things. Strong, capable, courageous. Courage is not the absence of fear.

PJ: Yeah.

Adam: Courage is accomplishing the mission in the face of fear.

PJ: Yes.

Adam: And so for that I can say I'm extremely extremely courageous.

Uh and not just Iraq a lot in Iraq but again right now if some crisis situation happened like I could respond appropriately you know um my hands would probably shake afterwards you know like Tom Hanks and Saving Private Ryan. That's how my hands used to shake and I used to think that was weakness and I was like I don't give a [expletive] everything's over. And then I learned like that's actually the adrenaline coming down. Absolutely. It's like you held it together so good during the crazy [expletive] That's why you're shaking now.

I wasn't shaking during it. So that gives me a sense of pride. Like I that's who I am still. I still am, you know, Sergeant Banotai. I still can do all those things.

And it's not so much the shooting and all that stuff. It's the persona, the mentality, you know.

PJ: That's right.

Adam: You take a sergeant Marines that can lead an infantry squad uh successfully, that that sergeant could lead a group of, you know, crossing guards or I don't know where I came up with that idea, but you could come up with like the most, you know, you could leaders lead and I'm a leader.

Fighters fight. I'm a fighter,

you know. Um, so that

PJ: it does sound like you have an identity.

And so, by the way, I'm I'm curious and this is my last question before before we wrap this up, but like you said you're courageous and I believe this, especially with what I have learned about you. Um, would you redefine courageous now as opposed to just even a couple years ago?

Adam: Oh, from a couple years ago. I thought you were going to ask a little bit different of a question. I was going to say I think there's

obviously a a number of couries. We have like moral courage.

Um, doing the right thing for the right reason in the face of, you know, difficult dilemma.

Um, we have physical courage, running in front of, you know, the machine gun shooting and stuff like that. uh crazy. Having been a firefighter all these years, I don't feel I needed to display a lot of physical courage in a very long time. Um moral courage is is harder. So yeah, I definitely am courageous. Um just trying to think. Does it hurt

the thinking? Um I guess re how would I redefine it? There's just different ways to be courageous. my younger years, I would have said courage is the stereotypical first thing we think of, the running into the fire, the shooting.

PJ: So that that's what I'm trying to tease out. I'm curious to know like if it sounds like it's not that a redefinition, but you've added to the definition. Is that fair?

Adam: Yeah, I would say even physical courage, you got to have it within you to do that. Like I was [expletive] terrified half the time. You just put one foot in front of the other anyway. It's not like you're doing some technical skill physically. It's it's literally just keep walking, keep going, keep punching, keep doing whatever. Um, but I think the bigger courage is having the ability to make that decision during crisis.

So, physically, it's not that hard to just run into the fighting, but to make the decision to take the first step, to get the leg moving. Once the legs are moving, they'll move.

PJ: Yeah.

Adam: But your brain has to tell it to move.

PJ: Absolutely.

Adam: So, I think now I value what you do when you're being courageous is important, but not as much as the fact that you had the balls to do it. You pulled the trigger. You took the step. You you you raised your hand. You volunteered. You're out there doing it instead of sitting on your ass waiting for someone else to do it. You're living. You're not letting life happen to you.

PJ: That's right.

Adam: You know, that's courage. Courage is living, not letting life happen to you.

PJ: Thank you. That right there. So what I guess what what I was I was trying to figure out here too because you had mentioned you know um bravery at this point is also being able to admit that there's that there's something wrong right

I think that this kind of goes one step further as well of like courage is decision-m

but a lot of times it can even just be the decision-m to like get up off your ass as you said to go change your life in a way that's better for you because a lot of people will sit and they'll lay on the nail. They'll lay on the nail and oh it hurts and oh it hurts but they won't do something about it.

Adam: Learn helplessness.

PJ: Yeah.

Adam: They're they're used to it. They're comfortable with it. It's

PJ: courageous to do something about it.

Adam: It's almost Yeah. It's it's courageous to try and do something knowing you might fail.

PJ: Yes. Like

Oh man. Well said.

Adam: And that could be anything from asking the girl out at the bar to applying for the job to, you know, uh leaving your job to go back to school to get a better job knowing that that's going to cost you financially in the meantime. So there's lots of ways to be courageous, but the courage is yeah just making the decision like the switch in your mind to do it. Whatever your challenge is, the courage is universal to flip the switch. Once you flip the switch and you show the courage in your brain, you can do anything.

PJ: Yeah, I love it, man. Cool. What's your favorite book?

Adam: I'm partial. Uh Elliot Ackerman, Places and Names. Uh my old platoon commander, great guy. great book on um the humanity in war, the personal side of it. Um

and then also uh while we're talking about veterans and trans transitioning home, the single greatest book that I would recommend that helped me and and really lets you know you're not alone is Tribe by Sebastian Junger. any of Sebastian's work,

but a lot of it is uh shoot them ups, you know, entertaining documentaries, but Tribe really talks about how we are a tribal people, a societal people meant to be together, needing a purpose, needing a calling, uh, and needing each other. Um, and when you read that,

you realize you're not alone with what you're feeling. Not now amongst your peers, and not even

in the history of mankind are you alone. what you were experiencing and feeling coming home is what Native Americans were feeling and and English settlers and British folks in World War II. Um, we're humans. Our struggles are universal. You're not alone.

PJ: And what about podcast?

Adam: Uh, your podcast is my

I don't really listen to a lot. I don't think anybody here is going to be listening to Table Talk with Dave Tate of EliteFTS about powerlifting. Uh, but there might be

table talk with Dave Tate. You want to hear some wild ass stories about some crazy guys doing some crazy [expletive]

— Uh, yeah, Dave has those stories.

PJ: Cool, man. How can people get a hold of you?

Adam: I don't want them to get a hold of me. Anybody contact me? Uh, why don't they reach out to you here on the podcast? You have my contact info. Anyone I can help um veteran wise, you know, I can tell you more about my story. I'll listen to you vent about your story. questions about how I got to what I did with nursing or the fire department and just logistics, I can help you guide with that. Anything I can do with anyone, definitely reach out to PJ and um I'll be more than happy to help.

PJ: Sweet. Thank you, brother. As always, friends, please like, subscribe, leave any comments that you have to improve or any guests that you'd like to see on the show, any questions you'd like to see me ask or any books that you'd like to see me talk about since we talk about books so much here on the show.

Dude, really appreciate you being vulnerable.

Adam: Thank you for having me here.

PJ: No, I really appreciate

talking on the show. Appreciate you.