Air Force Vet's Mindset Shift That Changed His Civilian Career

Speaker labels and mis-heard names are corrected by hand; the words are as spoken, filler and all.

PJ: Welcome. This is episode number one of the Prize podcast. Our intention is to bring on some inspiring individuals to help share their journey as they made their transition from military civilian life, and hopefully learn a thing or two. My name is Dan, attended go by PJ. Uh, I was in the Marines myself, and welcome to the podcast. So Chris, do you want to give a quick little intro to yourself? Um, give, you know, hey, how long were you in the, in the Air Force, and, uh, when you got out?

Chris: So, uh, I've been, uh, been in the Air Force since 2007. Uh, I was raised in Army brat, so had a lot of trial and tribulations picking where I was going to be, but I'm still in the reserves now. Uh, got off active duty in 2012. Uh, all my active duty was through the reserves on just active duty orders, so just volunteer after mission after mission after mission. So I got to live, uh, kind of a different career than most active duty guys. I got to pick and choose when, uh, when I got on and when I got off, but along that, a lot of headaches dealing with budgeting, you know, being on orders for 60 days, think getting cut back to 20, being on for 300.

So I dealt with a lot of headaches that, uh, a lot of, uh, you know, our brothers and sisters wouldn't have dealt with. So, but it gave me a lot of insight. You know, it gave me a different, uh, perspective to grit and understanding and, and perseverance, because, you know, I wanted to be on orders, but, you know, we, we, as we know, uh, government budgeting sometimes isn't as smooth as we wanted to be. But, uh, it definitely was, definitely was an experience, and, you know, I enjoyed it a lot, but a lot of things came clear of what I wanted later on due to dealing with that.

And, uh, I, I, I, I still dealing with the transition. Uh, you know, currently I still have struggles every day on where I should be. You know, I struggle with, um, if I'm not doing enough. I struggle with if I'm not using my talents where, you know, my country needs to, to be. So still, still an ongoing, I guess, transition, yeah. Uh, kind of a daily battle, you know.

PJ: I love that you touched on that. Um, this is something that a buddy, um, JP and myself talk about. He's, he's actually a psychologist in Air Force, or was in Air Force. Um, that transition is not just a point in time. It is not just one thing that happens, done, it's over. It is an ongoing thing that we go through, because there's many pieces of us that are transitioning, and it happens over a course of time, right?

Chris: Defitely.

PJ: Um, so we'll, we'll dive into, you know, a bunch of that. Um, but I have some questions, you know, like, so when did you get out of active? You said, uh, 2012?

Chris: 2012.

PJ: So we're looking at, like, almost 13 years at this point.

Chris: Correct.

PJ: Okay. Um, when you were going through that initial transition, what was your primary concern at that time?

Chris: Uh, nothing was, for me, you know, I was in, I'm in Dover, uh, living, living in Bethlehem. So, um, all the transitioning was around Dover and staying local. As a reservist, I don't live there, so I didn't really fit in with active duty. I didn't really fit in with anyone that's, like, you know, uh, retiring. So my transition looked daunting, because all the assistance was local, not anything, um, for where I lived, primarily. So I was just driving from job fair to job fair for a, after work.

So duty day was over, I was on the road an hour out to Jersey, New York, anywhere. I was just, that's all I did for hours, just to come right back to Dover to get ready for the next day.

PJ: Got it. So was the primary concern then, is it fair to say that it was, like, finding a new career, finding a job?

Chris: Correct. Uh, um, you know, TAP was great, a lot of great resources, but they weren't, they weren't aligning me of a direct career path. It was, it was what you did, what you did in the military, and then these are the job codes that align with it. Not necessarily, there wasn't a lot of diving into what I should be doing. Um, you know, first thing everyone wants to do is look at law enforcement. Uh, you know, love it. I come from a law enforcement family. Brothers a marshall, dad is retired Marshall. Um, but for what I wanted, they just, just, it just didn't feel right to, that's where I was supposed to land.

PJ: So what did you do?

Chris: Uh, made a lot of mistakes, to be honest with you. Made a lot of mistakes. Gotta, you know, again, we have this, a, uh, the number, the number drove. You know, I was a, I was a dad, I was a new dad on the way, so first and foremost was providing. So not necessarily what job I wanted, what job was going to pay me with the qualifications that I had. So at the time I didn't have my degree. Uh, I just had what I did in the military.

I was, uh, working for operations for the C-5M, and we just converted it to be combat ready. So a lot of the things that I enjoyed doing had nothing to do with the job, necessarily. It was more of the camaraderie, it was more of being part of the world defense. So when I left that, I was looking for a job, I was just focusing on a number, which was really wrong, because it wasn't where I, that didn't help. You know, I was, uh, you know, I was a little overzealous.

I was applying for jobs that, you know, my eyes wanted more than my, my, my, my brain, if that makes sense. It was, yeah, it was a lot of jobs, okay, that looks good, I can. A lot of the jobs I was looking for, I knew I could do, but what wasn't, uh, wasn't positioning myself to get in for the interview. It was like, of course I could do that. You know, in the military we wear nine hats. Like, you know, of course I could be the CEO for Chase.

Yeah, yes, of course I could be the CEO. Like, I can figure it out. So that attitude had to get adjusted to what I can sell myself to do versus what I think I could do. So that came with a lot of rejections, a lot of heartache. I mean, I think I easily put in 6 to 800 applications, M, and, and 6 to 800 nose. Uh, you know, hurt. And, you know, the job fairs were great, but, um, it was, again, uh, you know, state troopers came calling, all that.

And the things that I, you know, I wanted to be, I wanted to be a different dad. Um, you know, I grew up, I grew up, you know, and, and I, and, and I love my dad and what he did. He just, he got, he missed out on a lot. And even in my 13 years prior to leaving active duty, I missed a lot. So I, I, I didn't want to repeat history with, with my, uh, my son coming in.

PJ: Got you. Hey, so this is actually a very valuable point, um, that I'm glad you brought up. Um, I think that sometimes we do lose sight of maybe the bigger picture, or what our real values are, as opposed to, you know, maybe seeking security, or, or shooting for the stars, which isn't a bad thing, but, like, going for that number, like what you were saying. But there's a bit of a conflict there sometimes, right? And I know that we know hustle. Like, we, we're taught hustle, fig, resilience, and figure it out.

We were resourcefulness, right, like in the military. Um, which, by the way, is such an incredible skill, that I think a lot of times we, we, we underestimate the power of that skill of resilience and resourcefulness. However, it's not always well directed.

Chris: That's, I could 100%, you know, contain of that. Uh, again, like I said, it was going for a number. I didn't, I wasn't concerned with my happiness. My only job was, I not, if iyed it, if they were going to me Shel, I, I would go do it. So I wasn't, I wasn't career first in terms of what I wanted to do. It was what's going to provide, what's going to keep, you know, my, my kid, you know, warm, sheltered, and fed. So I, I was not concerned with, uh, what was best for me, right?

Which, you know, in, in turn was, was a blessing, cuz it put me in some jobs I didn't want to do, so that it taught me better on what I did want to do. So I, I just, I, I knew I had to take those lumps. Uh, but again, with that resilience, with, with, with what way, you know, I learned through the military, and just raised, you know, growing up. Uh, I, I put those vies in my kids a lot. Being, I always tell my kids, being resourceful is forever, being an expert is temporary.

Sure, someone's going to dethrone you, if you want to use that expert word. And, uh, again, being resourceful is just something that, again, you know, you know, my, uh, shout outs to, to, to, to my, my, my leadership. It was, look it up. Every time I came with a question, go through the AFI, go look it up, go find it. So, um, learned. It was funny, I always make the joke that working with the VA, you be, you become a litigator. You just, you learn how to read, you, you learn how to, you learn how to read and interpret.

And, uh, I guess it's like a byproduct that a lot of us, uh, are stuck with for a long time, of, of just, of just resourceful and, and, and, and depicting it. Cuz again, the way I read it, mainly the way you read it, and that's where, you know, rank comes in, and it doesn't exist in the civilian world.

PJ: Well, you know, you brought up actually something that's, um, I think a big challenge for most of us when we get out, right? Like, the VA in general, just navigating that is, is something that can be really challenging, and not all of us continue to be resilient in that process, right? Um, and I think that this is something that may ring true, something we've heard in a lot of research, but what kept you going in navigating the VA, and making sure that you got, um, the resources that you need, that you got the benefits that you need, you got the, the rating or whatever that you needed? Like, what kept you going through that, and what do you think that, in your journey through that, turns most people off?

Chris: Uh, I mean, I don't know if it's, uh, it's a, it's an unhealthy habit, but letting someone down is just a nightmare me. Um, so letting down my, my, my wife, letting down my son, letting down my, my, my brother's a big inspiration to me. Um, not coming with, not coming in first place bothers me, because it's, it was based off of, it was based off, uh, you know, how do I put it, it was based off effort. A lot of the things dealing with the VA is repetition, repetition, repetition.

Sure, which is my wheelhouse. Okay, you know, if I tell you we're going to go ruck 1,000 miles, you look at me like I'm crazy. But if I tell you we're going to do 10 a day, you know, it's manageable. And I've always had that mindset. Um, again, never, never gifted academically, but, uh, I realize that if I can swing a kettle bell a thousand times, I can read a book, I can read a page a day. So that, that, again, uh, from the military, of just got to beat it up.

Just, you just have to punch it a couple times, find where it's weak at. And with the VA is just a ton of repetition. When they do tell you to follow up, follow up. Uh, but I had the, there was a lot of errors that I made that cost me. But again, the best way to learn at the VA is to make mistakes. You know, for example, uh, being on Post-9/11, uh, on school, if you're going to school, if you do more than 30 days of active duty to help out your unit between breaks, you lose, I don't, quote me, two to three months of your B after that.

PJ: Oh wow.

Chris: I only learned that because of asking questions, um, and, and having that, that, that situation AR, and then spreading that information. I'm really big on, I called everyone that I knew that I was going to school: hey, during the winter break, before, when school's out, cuz you're not getting paid, uh, be careful. Don't, don't do more than 30 days to help out your unit. Cuz it didn't make sense to me. I'm, I'm going to help my unit, they need man-days for over 30 days, why would that affect the, uh, um, a benefit that I earned? M, and, you know, VA pretty much just told me it's just the way it is.

PJ: Got it. Yeah, there's a lot of loopholes. So, all right, so let's, you know, rewind a little bit. You know, you're, you're going through, and you're looking for, you know, career. Um, what did you step into?

Chris: So, it was funny. I, I really wanted to go to, I really want to go to Lockheed, Boeing. I just, that's where everybody went. I really wanted to get involved with, with them. Uh, went to a job fair, and someone from Wells Fargo overheard me. Uh, they were like, you know, they, they knew I was bilingual, they say they saw it, and I looked at it, I was like, banking? I, I don't, like, that's, that's not something I want to get into. I just, I was like, but, you know, it's a practice for, it's a great practice for, uh, for, for interviewing.

So I said, you know, I'll go ahead. Boeing didn't, Boeing and, and, and Lockheed didn't call me back. So I went to the job interview, and, uh, the, uh, my, uh, my hiring manager was prior Army, so she really understood what I was going through. And she was like, listen, like, this job teaches you a lot. You mean, it's not much different than what you're doing now. As an NCO, you're managing, you know, you know, young aidden soldiers buying Camaros at 35% on APR for a car.

Yeah, we're, you know, security clearances. So a lot of the things was already doing. Um, I only had that job to do, and, uh, through time, really, really learned to love it. Uh, we talked about it before, uh. A big problem I had was I needed a job to define me, versus me define the job.

PJ: So interesting. Can you drill into that for a second?

Chris: That, yeah. I, I really, I loved wearing my uniform. I love not picking up my clothes. I loved, you know, even on the, on the 16, 18 hour days, I, at the end of the day, I was super happy that it was part of, it was for the world defense. Yeah, there was a, there was a sense of accomplishment that it wasn't to make a quota, it wasn't, I mean, it wasn't to do any, it was, it was for something bigger than me. And, uh, I, I'd love to tell you that I enlisted for unselfish reasons, but I did, uh, and, uh, I enlisted cuz I, I needed things for me.

I needed to grow up, I wanted to get better at things, and, you know, I was raised in it, so I already knew it. But as my career went on, that selfishness really started to fall off, cuz you started to realize how big of a job we do with, with little to no resources. So, uh, so I really, the, the camaraderie, the hardship, it, it gave me a chip on my shoulder that really define the jobs, define me, you know? So when I was looking for jobs, nothing really gave me that feeling.

And then I started to, you know, my brother made a, my brother is the one who really, uh, made it clear for me. He goes, everyone knows of you, everyone, everyone respects what you've done, everyone knows what you've done. Who, what do you trying to prove? And he was like, you know, cuz I do feel guilt. You know, I'm 6 foot, I'm 250 lbs, I'm like, I should be knocking doors down, I should be, you know, I should be going into the houses. And, uh, you know, I had a good talk with my dad about it, and, uh, he told me, he goes, uh, you know, when he was telling me, when I was born, how much he missed.

And, uh, again, that struggle, that struggle internally went back and forth all the time, of what I was built to do, what I should, should be doing, have the job to find me, you know, you know, put the badge in front, and between, you know, what my, what my, what my son would remember me as. And, uh, I'm very grateful I picked, I picked my route, but it came with, it came with a lot of bumps and bruises.

PJ: Sure. Okay, I mean, so you've been in the banking industry how long now?

Chris: Uh, north of about six, seven years. Yeah, yeah. Took a little break, went to tech, but then really missed the, the personal. You know, I, my favorite moment is when I get a brand new business owner, and shaking, holding their notebook, cuz they have no idea. Cuz it's very similar to the day that you enlist, and you're on the bus, and you're like, what did I do? Like, you're on the bus, someone huge is yelling at me, I can't hear them, it's chaos. And it's that moment of regret of, oh, there's no turning back.

You get on, I mean, I'm older, you're on the pay phone calling Mom and Dad, tell them you're okay, and they're telling you what to say. And it's that, it gives me, it reminds me of that moment when I get a brand new business owner, of like, I'm doing this. There's a little bit of regret, there's a little bit of fear, but all I know is that I'm pressing forward. So it really gives me nostalgia to that moment. And I just, I, I, I absolutely love working with small business owners, because you gota, you know, you know, excuse, but you got to have a set on you to want to go out and do things on your own.

Sure, you do. There is no one to look in the mirror. But if you succeed, it's you. If you fail, it's you. It's you. And that's, you know, that resides with, with the military. You know, it, it's, it's, if you want to be highp speed, that's all on you. If you want to be low speed, it's all on you. There's, there's, uh, again, that perseverance comes back. So that's, that's where I really fell in love with my job and stopped worrying about what defined me versus who I helped.

PJ: Oh yeah.

Chris: So once I started helping more, it got rid of that stigma of, oh, well, you know, my brother's over here going to Marshall Academy, and I'm like, oh, I'm getting my finance degree, you know? And I stopped, I stopped that insecurity of letting that say I'm any less tough. I'm, I was still that guy driving 3, four hours a day to find a job. I, I stopped looking at toughness directly in, in terms of being in the field. I, I stopped looking at toughness in that light, and looked at it as, well, no, I'm a guy willing to drive cross streets to go find a job.

I'm that guy willing, you know, I always make a, I have a big, my proudest, I guess, fatherhood moment is that I did all the night feeding and then would hop on the bus at 4:00 a.m. to go to New York to go to school. So I define toughness in my daily action versus my job. So I, I car, I carried it in myself every day of, no, no, no, I can take that same attitude and daily do it, and not need to be blowing something up or fighting someone to say I'm a tough guy.

It was, it was in my actions that I knew that. You know, I look back at it now, and I go, I might have been a little crazy to, you know, feed my kid, and I had no business being in finance. You know, I'm, I'm, I'm on YouTube trying to figure out most of my classes, and ask for the VA, anything below a C, you're not getting paid. Yeah, yeah. So, um, you know, it's just, again, with that, my, my S, my brother told me, I could never do what you do.

And I'm looking at him like, you're a US Marshal, dude. Like, you're not fighting, you know, parking tickets, you're fighting the, the war, so the worse, and you're, you're. And he told me, he goes, you know, uh, you know, I get, I get emotional talking about him, because he's such a big influence. He was like, no, like, Chris, like, your toughness is a whole another level. Like, it doesn't make any sense. And that really stuck with me. So even support, even camaraderie really goes a long way.

You know, my brother enlisted right after I did, about three years after me, so he just, uh, he took my recipe, did it different. But, uh, yeah, like, that, that, I, I, again, I didn't have a lot of friends coming into the civilian world, so I really had no one to talk to. Didn't want to talk to my brother much, cuz I didn't want to look like I was weak to him. So that, that, that big brother thing got in the way, and then he just kind of knock that wall down of, like, dude, we're just, we're just two guys now. Like, we've been out of our house for how many years?

PJ: That's beautiful. Yeah, and, and, you know, I think that's also something that's greatly missed, is when we, when we do get out. I mean, I think this is probably common in a lot of people just in general, right? Like, we, we do want to appear a certain way, especially in the military. You know, we have a certain image or identity to uphold, and we get out, it's stripped, right? And then we get out, and, and now it's like, well, I, I have to prove something. But that something means something very different to a civilian person than it does to someone who's been in these shoes.

Chris: 100%. You know, every job interview was, uh, well, you know, again, um, I, I love that Hollywood supports the military, but they, Hollywood has cornered us to only be this thing. Sure, yeah. So everyone thinks we're Saving Private Ryan, everyone, everyone thinks we're special forces, everyone thinks we're Tears of the Sun, so—

PJ: Or that we're all Army.

Chris: Yeah, yeah, yeah, that, or that we know someone. Hey, my, my, my uncle 40 years ago was in, and I'm like, I, I'm 25, dude, I don't know. So, um, yeah, Hol, that didn't help. The stigma didn't help. You, it was funny, like, my first week at Wells Fargo, my staff was scared that I was going to make him do push-ups.

PJ: Oh, really?

Chris: Yeah, and I'm like, you should have. I wanted to, trust me, I wanted to. It was funny, like, I, I didn't even understand what getting chewed out was in the civilian world. I went to a meeting, and I guess I got chewed out, and I was like, there's nothing, like, there was no. And they're like, you okay? I'm like, yeah. Like, like, he was monotone, like, oh, he really gave it to me. I'm like, no, he didn't. Like, no, he didn't. So it was, it's those things, you know?

Again, military, the, the best path is straight. Something's in the way, we get rid of it, straight. You know, and in the civilian world, it's loop-de-loop, parallelogram here, stop sign there, stop sign here. So, uh, again, with that daily, that daily struggle, it's, it's, it's a CO—

PJ: Let's touch on that, actually, um, because I think that a lot of us, myself, um, ex, you know, included here, one of the things that I didn't account for in getting out was, like, how difficult it would actually be just to, like, communicate with the civilian. Like, that was something I didn't think about it all. And we come from this, you know, culture, um, especially in the Marines, I'm, I'm sure there's, in, in the Air Force as well, but, like, where it, it is in a lot of ways a locker room, yeah. You know, we have a little bit of a different sense of humor.

Chris: Yeah. Uh, you know, I, I really do believe that we have a different sense of optimism.

PJ: Yeah, that's fair. Perception, different filters on life.

Chris: Yeah, we, we had no choice but to be optimistic, versus, you know, I, I even struggle in my marriage with it sometimes, when, you know, you know, my wife complains about something, and I sound like my dad. I'm like, well, you know, what's it like not eating for two days, three days? And she's like, I don't understand that. So there, people across the world. Yeah, there's a, there's a certain, I guess, uh, downplays veterans have to do to get in the S world, to go, they don't, they've never experienced it.

And we have to take it with a grain of salt, and almost take a step back to go, they can read about it, you can tell them about it, but until you live it, they're never going to understand.

PJ: Absolutely.

Chris: They're never going to understand that, how good it feels when you get a nice set of blouse boots, like, that day where it just doesn't move. Like, they don't understand the little things. You know, they have different references. There's, there's a lot, being late. You know, I struggled a ton in class. You know, I, I see kids come in 20, 30 minutes late, and I'm 10 years older than everyone in my class. I'm going there with, with ad mission, with the direct early, late, yeah. And, you know, I'm sitting there, hands sweating, you know, like, how, how, where's your, how do you not have a goal that is, is nothing but your drive to attain it?

Sure. Like, how, how do you, we, we never plan for, yeah, we have plan B, but we never want to get to it. And, you know, it was, it, it was difficult, it was.

PJ: Well, so tell me this thing, cuz I think that this is actually a really interesting segue of, like, you know, we all assume that the biggest struggle of getting out is, like, finding a job. And something I've heard and seen over and over again, um, especially within the plethora of resources out there for this, is that there's a big focus on job. Something that I've seen and heard through interviews as well is that, you know, we're, we're constantly focusing on this, this idea of a job, but we're trying to replace a way of being with a job.

So I'm curious from you, like, what was your actual biggest struggle? Not what you thought it was at the time, but looking back, what was your actual biggest struggle making the jump from military to, uh, civilian?

Chris: Uh, I hate picking up my clothes every day. That's, that's a nightmare. Uh, my biggest struggle was this, I guess I would say, the speed. You know, I was not used to stting my day at 9:00 a.m. I was not used to, I was not used to, um, I guess I want to say failing, but if it didn't work out, it didn't work out. I, I wasn't used to that. That was a big struggle for me. Um, and, and in terms of, uh, a big one, I'm going to say, was, you know, when you did something well in the military, um, it was documented, but it wasn't, it, it didn't have to be rewritten nine different ways.

Everyone knew that was the stud, everyone knew that was that guy. Sure. In the civilian world, you got to sell it, you got to present it, you got to talk about yourself. Versus the military, you don't talk about it. Oh yeah, your first shirt announces it at a commander's call, and they talk about what you did well. Versus, you know, when I first came into the civilian world, you, I was told you have to constantly communicate the things you're doing. I'm like, I come from a world where you don't, you don't do that.

You don't talk about your, yeah, you don't talk about what you're doing. You let someone else speak about it. You do the job because that's the job. And civilian world is complete opposite. You have to tell someone, hey, hey, PJ, I did this, this, this really, this good thing I did, that. And I'm like, well, to me, that kind of felt like I was diluting the good thing I was doing, because I had to sell it.

PJ: Interesting.

Chris: Yeah, which, you know, even, even now, um, I tell my nonprofits, I understand that struggle. Um, that's why, you know, I have a success working with nonprofits, because they almost feel like they're getting rid of their good thing by having to push, having to, you know, generate more income, right? Because, but that's, you have to pay to do a good thing. And that's one thing that I'm grateful I learned in silian world, from, from, from the military world, is that, you know, we also are depending if someone does speak on what we're doing well.

So it is nice to have, I guess, the, the hand, the, you know, the, the foot on the pedal to direct the good things that I'm doing. But it just took, took years and years to fall off of not celebrating the things I did well.

PJ: Yeah, that's really interesting. Um, I, you know, I would imagine, and tell me if I'm wrong, you know, something that I think that we do actually get in the military is a good sense of salesmanship, because we have to be able to sell our, our leadership, both up and down the chain, on some change that needs to happen. However, I think what you're talking about here, which is a bit nuanced, is, is this idea of selling yourself.

Chris: Correct.

PJ: Which, I think you're right. You know, and in fact, I didn't, thank you, that, um, I didn't really think about that. This is definitely something that you have to do, especially when you go out and, like, you know, apply for a job, or, like, you know, I have a business now that I'm starting, and I've got to go put it out. We got to start a podcast. No, but, like, no, I hear you. Like, this is something is often overlooked. Um, and I'm curious then, cuz this is kind of conflicting, but it's also, it lends to itself, right, of, you know, we do get this unbelievable kind sales training in some aspect, we just don't push it the way for us, ourselves, right? How did you, like, tie the knot? Did you get around to, like, actually, you know, shoring that up? Like, and how did you do that?

Chris: Uh, funny enough, uh, it was accidental. Uh, through some good mentorship. I met some veterans, uh, one who's, you know, were in the building that they're in, that, you know, taught me how to put that together through conversation. Yeah, yeah. Um, I, I, I, uh, I've always, one of the reasons I entered the reserves is that I wanted to work with older guys who knew what they were, who just, who had time under them. And I was, I was willing to carry the, I was willing to do all the grunt work to work with guys who knew.

Even from little, even from when I was young, I was always more interested in talking to someone older, cuz I go, well, you know, he's got five, six years ahead of me, I want to know what he did. So I've always had a genuine curiosity to talk to someone who knew more. Never had an ego to think that I knew everything. I, my dad had a say in growing up, either, when, when we got push-ups for, for, for punishment, either going to be strong or smart, and guess when we're genetically disposed to be.

So I've always had, uh, you know, I love genuinely talking to people. I've gota, in college, I got obsessed with philos, I got obsessed with philosophy in college, because it really broke down the structure of a conversation, of just two drunk guys at a bar. And actually, philosophy really taught me how to have conversations with, with, with, with topics, and support, and challenging. It really took away from arguing to learning. And philosophy, I would tell any veteran, get into it. It, it really, there's an, like you said before, we were giv the tools to be a great salesman, and then never had to fire on it, because our sales was, this is what I did, this is what the team and I did, this is what.

It was never you as an individual. And then the civilian world, that's, well, what are you doing, right? And then, you know, and it's, there's not that camaraderie. You know, at the end of the day, everyone goes home. It's not like here, where that's, like, the military, where it's, you know, you know, what's going on after work? You know, we're working out, we're doing that, we're doing this. A world, it's everyone just kind of disappears and then comes back, and it's, you know, like, my, my camaraderie isn't on an 8 hour timer.

PJ: No, yeah, absolutely.

Chris: And it is there. And, you know, I've extended that to my clients. It's like, well, when can I call you? I'm like, whatever. Like, they get weirded out, as a banker. It's like, you can call me at 400, you can call me at 9:, like, I'm up. You, I have three kids. 4, 4:00 a.m. to 6:00 a.m. is my only time of peace. You can call me. You know, that's why I kind of gravitated towards more of the blue collar guys, who are up at 4:, up at 5:.

And, uh, you know, again, like, I kind of fell into a niche of client that allow me to get a taste of what it's like to be in uniform again.

PJ: Interesting. Oh, that's cool. All right.

Chris: It was by luck. It was by luck, and someone was looking out for me, and was just kind of gave me that niche of customers that give me that same camaraderie while—

PJ: I hear you. Um, I do think there's also a little bit of, when you're, tenacity here at play, being willing to put yourself out there in the right place at the right time. And it sounds like mentorship is really important.

Chris: 100%.

PJ: Right. And in fact, you mentioned, so we're, we're here at Venture X right now filming this, and, and the guy who, who helped you, Terry, the dude who owns this place. Right now, what would you suggest, you know, someone getting out, like, today, um, or, you know, like, say, in six months or something like that, um, how, how could they get plugged into a mentor?

Chris: Uh, one thing I learned, uh: Don't ask for handouts, ask for education. People are more likely to respond when you're not looking for, hey, could you get me a job here? Um, one of the things I told Terry right away was, I don't need your name on it, I just want to learn how you got out of the Marine Corps and, and moved up. And, um, personalities, we just married, were very similar. Terry was very reserved, but he had a, he had a presence, and you knew.

I mean, that's, there's a weird X-Men quality we have, that we can just tell. We can, we can just look, and we go, we know, we know if that knife hand, he's going to react. Um, and with mentorship, ask for that mentorship, ask for education, ask for experience. Um, if he, if he does help you, that's great, but don't lead with that. Just go, hey, I just want a cup of coffee, and just how you do it, what are you still struggling with? And most of us are, are more than willing to learn.

I mean, I'm in denial that I'm getting old enough to be in that mentor. I still feel like I'm at, you know, 20-year-old kid. And I, I, I would love to do that. I would love to mentor someone, just by, just by, just by talking about experience. You, and our experience isn't just work. It's in our, it's in our marriages, it's in our relationships. It pours into everything, and we kind of, we kind of overlooked that. And I'm like, hey, the same way I run, I help run my guys' businesses, is the same way I run, I kind of run, you know, the way I work with my marriage, um, is very, very similar.

And there's, and there's, there's a little bit of questioning, if, if I should, if I shouldn't. I'm like, no, it's, it's relationship managing. It's, it's, you know, one of, one of the best things I, I, I learned in my marriage is just service, service, service, service. And I'm like, well, that's what I did in uniform, why am I not bringing that to my marriage? And once I started connecting everything, you know, I'm a big, I'm also a huge fan of kinesiology now, the, the, the, the, the study of movement.

Just pivoting your toe another degree puts another two, three miles on a baseball. So I kind of adapted the nerd things I like into my work, because I did it to the military. You know, I, I, I, I, I love the study of just, just, just the, I loved analy in data, and in forms of just the way we talk, the way we present ourselves. Um, and it's been, yeah, patterns, patterns. Patterns are big. I think, I'm a firm believer, what you do when no one's looking is a big contributor to what you do when people are.

And, you know, walk in that, walk in that. So, uh, yeah, I mean, mentor, mentorship is big, and it doesn't have to be this super stuffy professional thing. It could be anyone.

PJ: Yeah. You know, I, I like what you said there, to, two things. One, service. Um, so service, I, I, I completely agree with you, and I think it comes naturally to a lot of people in the military, that, that we are there to serve. I mean, that's, that's our job, the whole point, right? And if it wasn't when you were going in, when, when you get to boot camp and they shave your head and there's no more eye, I mean, that's part of the, um, the mission and identity that they, uh, issue to you, right?

So I mean, like, I like this, though, specifically, because something that I found as it relates to mentors is, is if you actually provide a service to them first, if you provide value upfront, they love it, right? Like, what, someone who has a lot of experience and a lot of demand on their time and their resources, you coming in to ask for a cup of coffee may seem benign, but to someone like that, it's not benign. I now have to take 30 minutes or an hour or whatever it is out of my day, and I may want to, but it now conflicts with, like, everything else that I'm doing.

But if you came in and you're all of a sudden like, I can provide a service, whether it's, like, I don't know, um, mowing your lawn. It could be simple, it could be super simple, right? Like, it could be something like, uh, um, maybe, maybe fetching, you know, mail or something. I don't know, it sounds so silly, it sounds so, you know, again, benign. But coming in with an offer, or, or the ability to provide that value. And you see this, by the way, like, you know, some of these, you know, um, people on YouTube, um, and, and other people out there, the ones that do really, really well are the ones that deliver all that value for free on their channel.

And they may have all these things they charge money for, but guess what? They're making a lot of money on those things, even though the content may be exactly the same, but they were upfront delivering that value, so you have no doubt that you're going to get value on the backside. So to dovetail that in, you know, when you're looking for a mentor, being able to come out and say, like, hey, I'm willing to do this for you for free, or whatever. It doesn't have to be for free, but get my point.

Like, I would love to get some experience here, I would love to learn, and I'm willing to put myself out there, I'm willing to bust my ass to get in here and help you with whatever you may need. Um, that sort of thing is incredibly valuable. And I think that is also something that may be often overlooked inside of ourselves when we get out, because we look at, like, oh, you know, I was kicking indoors in Afghanistan, or whatever it may be, and now I get out, I'm like, what do I put on my resume? Yeah, right? That's a challenge, right?

Chris: And, and also, trust your instincts. Yeah, ah, trust your instincts, uh, they're right. Um, when I, when I got into banking, uh, I spent two days watching who went into the bank and out. So during my interview, I broke down their clientele. Um, segment, segmentation is big in sales. We do it in the military. It's, it's, it's intel, it's, it's OB, we do it. So I went, well, this is, well, I'm not doing it, I'm not, I'm doing it during the day, cup of coffee, I'm not.

Yeah, so I just literally sat outside the bank I was working at, and during my interview, I go, I just broke down who comes in and comes out, how many people. I trusted my instincts. It was, it was a SALUTE, it was a SALUTE report, you know? And, uh, it really, again, I'm like, that's old one, but it's, it's, I think we, when we come, when we come out of the military, we want to almost wash all that away. We wear our pen, we wear that, but we want to, we want to take everything we learned and go, okay, I'm a brand new, you know, I'm a, I'm a brand new canvas, me, civilian life.

And it's, no, we can bring a lot of that over, right? And we just have to tweak it. But, you know, as we know, when tweaking, there's, you can tweak too much to the right, tweak too much to the left. You, H, you can't be scared to make a mistake. Yeah, you have to, you have to, you got to break some things sometimes. Um, and I went through, I went from, I went from, you know, and banking, before I was even banking, I had a job at Mossberg building shotguns.

PJ: Oh, really?

Chris: So I was heaving, yeah. I went from doing manual labor. So I just went, what makes me, what am I going to do? Cuz again, I had to just, and I was building shotguns, and, and, and, and working in machine work. And then, so, you know, if you told me now, if you told 18-year-old Chris he'd be a banker, I'd go, really? You're going to trust, you're going to trust him with numbers and accounts? And now, as, as 37y old Chris, I go, yeah, he's going to, he's.

And, and that's one thing we got from the military, you know, camaraderie. Your, your buddy success was just as big to you to him. Sure. And that's something I do with my small business, my owners. Their success is just as important to me as it is to them, because again, it gives me that, you know. I still talk to all my old buddies every day, and their success is so big for me. Like, that, that motivates me when, you know, and that. And on top of mentorship, um, staying in contact with everyone you were with, and making sure that they're healthy and good to go, is huge.

Um, uh, one of the things that really helped me with my transition was youth coaching. It taught me lot of patience. It taught me, yeah, it taught me, it taught me a lot that, hey, like, you know, cuz you go in there thinking you're just going to coach your kid, and, like, you know, you're coaching 20 others who have a very different mentality. You know, my kids, my kids, you know, they get push-ups for punishment, and then, you know, they talk to their friends, you don't do push-ups?

It's like, I do. And, you know, and, and, and it allows you to take a step back and see with a fresh set of eyes of, like, who you were a long time ago. Cuz the military, you know, me and you could tell, it's, it's, it's like running a youth, youth group. You know, it's just a lot of madness, a lot of different personalities, but once that, once that buzzer goes, they all dial right in. So, um, that was, that was really, really big for me. It really, uh, it gave me a sense of purpose while I was trying to find who I was, by just giving back and coaching.

PJ: Let's touch on that, cuz that, to me, I think is one of the most overlooked things, that when it comes out of, like, transitioning from the military service. You know, like, like I was saying, like, when you get in, they shave your head, there is no more eye. Issued the sense of identity and purpose. And it, it is a, it is for a good reason while we're in. It's what kept a lot of us alive, you know? It's, it's what kept the dude next to us alive.

You know, when you get out, they go, figure it out. And the hard part with that is, is, like we said before, a lot of us just fall back on, like, I need to find a job. And I get it, there's a security aspect to that. We have to be able to provide for ourselves or our families. The challenge, though, is that we're not actually addressing the bigger pieces, in my opinion, of, like, identity and purpose. Now all of a sudden we're out, and it's like, we're trying to, like, oh yeah, I might get paid really, really well doing something at XYZ company, but, man, do, do I, do I like the person that I am in it?

Or do I provide a sense of, uh, like, the value that I want to provide? Do I, do I come from that sense of purpose? And I think that this is a, a big challenge for a lot of people getting out, as we get very lost. Now all of a sudden, we're like, who am I? How did you overcome that?

Chris: Uh, so that's a funny story. When I was in New York, uh, I went to a couple, uh, CrossFit gyms, and one of them, I met a prior Marine who worked his way up to be a hedge fund manager, then he quit and became an EMT.

PJ: Okay, big pay difference.

Chris: Big paid difference. And I was just like, brother, you got to, you got to break this down for me. Like, I know what hedge funds managers make, and I know what EMTs make. What did it? And it was that, he goes, I just hated who I was. And, and, and there's nothing, you can find different values, but for him personally, that was his story. That just wasn't happy, was not happy. And that really, again, being able to talk to people and conversate, I learned a lot through other people, instead of trying to, you know, be Batman in the corner, not talk.

I, I learn that, again, from little: talk to people and learn their story. Yeah, cuz, you know, we all tend to do that. A lot of veterans that I meet, they tend to get, you know, cast themselves off, and make it more difficult to convert, because they're not open. Yeah, it's like, whoa, why should, I mean, dude, you got, you got sleeves, you have a 17inch neck. Yeah, you know, John from the county is not going to want to have a beer with you, cuz he's a little scared of you, you know?

Versus in the military, there's 19 of you. Um, you know, again, uh, it's funny, like, I have yet to meet a civilian gym partner who wants to come to my basement and go, hey, let's red line. Well, no, I want to, you know, I want spot reduce that. I'm like, no, I don't, I want to, I want to, I don't want to forget the suck, you know? And that's big for my mentality. I tell my wife, my wife always hears me upstairs, she's, you're down there, like, screaming for your life.

I'm like, I don't want to, I don't want to get too soft. I don't want to forget, I don't want to forget the sucky part. I don't want to lose that aspect.

PJ: What does that do for you?

Chris: Uh, it makes me feel great. It, you know, I start my day and I go, hey, if, if I can start my day with whatever I did to myself in my basement, everything after that feels great. I get a huge, yeah, it's just huge dope and mean shot. But I also, you know, it's funny, like, when I do go to meetings and I meet blue collar guys, I turn my hands over, I go, I got callus too, you know? So it just sets me apart. It brings me back to, that's why we did PT.

We were investments from the government. I mean, we're, we, we are. It costs how much money to put you through pilot school, and you flew a multi-million dollar jet. Um, so that, the military's investment into you is the same concept. I have an investment into me.

PJ: Absolutely, you know, yourself.

Chris: Yeah. And I learned that the way I got here was from perseverance, so why would I physically lose that? Why would I physically lose that, when mentally they're, they're both connected? You know, it's very easy to train by yourself and go, oh, I don't have to do that today. I don't want to do leg day today, I don't want to hit the bite today. Well, that's the military. It's like, you're going to do it because it's good for you. We're, we're taping your neck and waste because we need you to be fit in order to continue the mission.

So I never wanted to lose, lose that part. Um, which is a big reason why I stay in the reserves. Uh, I don't want to l, I, I, I don't want to fully disconnect. You know, it's not, it's not the biggest commitment, it's, it's manageable, but it helps me kind of get my fix every month of, all right, I still have this in my back pocket. So it's, it's been difficult, though, managing both. Uh, managing both is, it's has, it's had its difficulties, so.

PJ: Okay. We, we touched, I'm going to kind of go back all, all the way to the beginning here. You, you brought something up, um, that was a great point, and it's that idea that, like, you know, the transition continues. What is currently your biggest struggle as you're still continuing to make this transition to a, let's just say, a new side of Chris?

Chris: Letting go of each side, because now I have civilian Chris, I have Reserve Chris, I have father Chris, I have Coach Chris. What you say, boundaries, yeah, yeah. Um, and don't, um, I, I, I still fall into that mistake of not taking care of me, of, I got to satisfy all these, and then I'm last. Um, you know, my, my, my workouts do give me a sense of confidence, a sense of boost that I did take care of myself, but that's 30 to 45 minutes. The rest of the day is making sure all the other squares are filled.

So I guess my biggest struggle is committing to one, cuz I really do, I do have to think about, all right, is the, what is, you know, once I hit 20 years, I'll be able to retire and, and collect a pension. Do I, do good, I go, do I go to 30? What is it about the reserves that I just can't really let go at the moment? And what's, does it impede on, you know, again, I'm missing my, my kids' basketball game this weekend, right? It's killing me, it's killing me.

But I also, I'm like, man, 18 years, I'm like, do I really want to cut it short and not hit that 20, not did that? But then I'm also a banker who understands that, you know, I can make that up in other ways, you know, personal investments. So in my, am I, am I just taking the easy way out? Am I, you know, I constantly have these battles, like, are you—

PJ: I love that you're introspective on this, man.

Chris: Yeah, you know, I'm like, I, I challenge myself. I thought, I talk a lot to myself of, am I, am I just doing what's, what's, what I know? Am I too scared to let it go completely? And, uh, you know, I think about that every day. Uh, unfortunately, I think about it at 10:00 till about 3: in the morning sometimes. But, uh, these, these are, these are, and, but again, I have an awesome network to talk to, talk to. You know, me and you have great, I, I always tell you, after our conversations, I feel like, all right, I can, I can, I can do it.

You know, talking to you, talking to my brother, talking to, uh, I have another, another guy named TJ, uh, a guy I helped get from the Army to the Air Force. But he's been, uh, again, these are guys I just don't want to let down. And I've let go of the stigma that being vulnerable to them isn't a let down. It's just honest conversation, like, bro, can you repeat that again? Um, toughness is vulnerable. Being vulnerable is, is not a let down, actually a form of real love, and actually tough to go, hey, man, like, what do you think, what do you know, what?

You know, it's funny, I'm, uh, I'm actually going to be putting pictures of them in my basement, of them calling me fat or something, just because that's our comedy, you know? That's, again, that, those are things, you know. I love that. It motivates. Yeah, it motiv, it's there, just things that, you know, the, what I love about the military is that they don't cut corners. They just go, this is, yes, this is the directness of, we, we don't have the effort, money, or resources to, two, cut corners.

And I, I, I like that. You know, I, uh, you know, my, my one good buddy's a new dad, and he's like, whoa. Like, he now, he now, because I introduce my vulnerabilities to him, he can talk to me about things that he said he probably wouldn't have talked to me before about it. And, uh, I always saw him like, and I, I learned real quick in the military, the happy nice guy at the bar, he was handing out shots, he's the guy who can probably toss most of the bar.

I, I learned real quick that the, the, the, the, the guys you don't mess with are the happiest most. And, uh, it was actually a Marine, uh, my, my wife hat this, but my ex-girlfriend, her stepdad was a Marine, and watching him be, and he's one of the, he's one of the people that helped me enlist and pick where I wanted to go. But this guy was, you know, a Recon Marine. He was just G.I. Joe, but he would watch Disney movies with me, and I see him crying.

I'm looking at him like, dude, you're Recon Marine. Like, you know, you're, you're. And, but he'd be, he taught me how to cook, he taught me how to, you know, he was just, he was just an allaround great guy, and didn't have this, this, I mean, that dude, you could cut, you could cut meat on his jawline, but he was just this, this open night. He would give, he'd hug you before he shook your hand. And I was, and that, and having that influence was like, man, you could be, you could be a badass, and abolutely also, you know, cry at Moana.

Like, cuz Moana gets me every time. I'm like, you're telling me I don't have to hold it in? That's going to be amazing. And that was just, and that, and, like, I didn't know it at the moment, until I went through my struggle. At my struggle is when I looked back and went, whoa, Paul. I mean, his name was Paul. Paul, uh, he, he didn't, he, he was him. Yeah, he was him. He didn't let—

PJ: And that's real strength.

Chris: Yeah, he didn't let the, you know, you know, the Marine Corps make him. He was still Paul that was in the Marine Corps. And so, but I didn't appreciate it at the time. I just thought, but then when I looked back and went, wow, like, this is, this is, this is what he must have went through to get to where he at, where he's at now. I now have someone that I could email, call, and be like, yeah, like, what, who you are is such a big influence. Because, again, the guy was a massive teddy bear, but could shoot a bee from 100 yards away. So it's like, wow, those two people can coexist.

PJ: Yeah, it's a different sort of crucible.

Chris: Yeah. And, uh, you know, and, and, again, it's, it's, you don't appreciate. I always say it: take every opportunity you can, because you never know when you're going to look back and need a reference or a resource from that time, right? Like, life gives you opportunities, but if you're not prepared to grab at it at the moment, it'll, it'll be gone. So, uh, yeah, again, it all comes down to that mentorship, that perseverance. But be open, talk. No, no, closed mouths don't get fed.

PJ: I do think that's a big challenge. I mean, I'll even admit for myself, like, when, when I got out, like, the, the first thing that I did, man, is I took everything that was military PJ and I just shoved it away, and I was like, I want nothing, nothing to do with that. Um, and I, I got, you know, I wasn't a part of communities, I wasn't, like, telling people that I was in the military. It's not like it was a secret, you know what I mean?

Like, here I am, you know, t-shirts tucked in with a belt. Um, um, but, like, I think, personally, like, I was very fortunate that I went to a place that had a lot of veterans there working. And, you know, cuz I'll tell you what, you know, like, if I were to have communicated the way that I did, you know, at, like, Meta, for instance, I, I would have been fired. Yeah, straight up. Even though it's effective, even though it's effective. But yeah, like, I mean, like, these guys pull meide, like, bro, like, you can't talk like that.

And I didn't know that was, to me, was a big struggle. I was a big, like, shocker, like, wow, oh yeah, people don't talk like this, I forgot, you know? So, all right, someone's getting out right now. What would you say to them? What would be your, like, best nugget of advice to someone getting out right now, for, to be successful in getting out, to be a civilian?

Chris: Yeah, 100%. Uh, take everything you learn in, in the military and be prepared to alter it. Everything, every single aspect that you learn and have, be prepared to put it into, put it pack in the oven. Yeah, I mean, I know you think that cake is done, but now you're literally reversing and take the ingredients and learn that they're all going to have to now be on a, on a, they're now all going to be raw, and you're going to have to twist and turn everything you learned.

But just don't, don't close off that gate. Now you're going to take what you learned, who you are, and now you're just going to go, what am I going to use? Again, it's what tools am I going to use at the right moment. And I would say, again, repetition. So compared with, take all your, take everything you've learned, take all your instincts, take, take, take your experience, and go, I'm going to unlock them, and I'm going to make them, I'm going to put them literally back in the bowl, to the 18-year-old guy who was in boot camp who didn't know anything.

Go back to that mentality with your resources, and be adaptable, cuz it's going to be adaptability. Sure. And, you know, there's some veteran groups that, there might be three guys or nine guys. It's 2025, you can find someone. Absolutely, you can find someone like you. You can't, it's not going to come to you. You have to go out and get it. You absolutely have to go, you have to put yourself out there, you have to. It's, it's scary, and it's not going to happen overnight, but just, again, just like, just like a ruck that feel like it's not going to be over in a long time, just one foot at a time.

Like, I know your heels hurt, I know your heels hurt, I know your back hurts, but that's how you get to the end. It's not going to happen standing still. So it's, it's, and take your time, take your time. Um, one thing that's, I mean, your NCOs will push it: save money on your, on your way out. Money gives you the chance to think. It's big. You know, I know I'm a banker, it may seem biased, but if you're able to give yourself time, it takes away that desperate need.

Absolutely. So invest, save, security. Think of, like, if you think it's going to take you three months to find a job, prepare for 12. Because then, you know, again, for me, not saving and not being prepared, putting me in all these awkward jobs, were great for me, but, um, if you want to save some years off your life and take some stress off, say, a big, big time, preparing, you know? Yeah, if I invested one of my bar tabs, uh, a week to that, where, where I would be right now, if I invested one night, um, you know, a month.

But I didn't, you know, that's, that's the reality of it. But, uh, really do prepare. Give yourself time to go, I'm going to need, you know, I'm going to need time to, to, to figure this out. And, and don't be scared of the change.

PJ: I think just's a beautiful point you're illustrating, too, is that, like, don't be afraid of the journey, yeah. You know, I think that all too often, and, and, like, I get this from, you know, people reaching out to me in LinkedIn all the time. Usually they're, like, college kids, and they're like, ah, I got to get to, like, this FAANG company or whatever, right? And it's like, you're 22, yeah. You know, like, it's okay if you go to another company first, and you learn a thing or two, and you, and you get out, and then make it where you want to go.

It may not even be one time, it may be five times. That's okay. Enjoy the journey. You're, if you're open to it, you're going to learn something on each step of the way, and then you can use all of that stuff to build who you want to be.

Chris: I always say life is short to those who don't live it. Oh man, life is very short if you're doing the same thing day in and day. I always tell my wife, I want you to describe to me what living is without mentioning your heartbeat. And if you're, again, it, like, the military, the best bomb makers in Iraq had the least amount of fingers, the best. So it, it's, it's, you're in that same mentality of, be prepared to get punched in the throat, which we are.

And you have, you're just going to get punched in the throat by someone who, and, and it is hard, because the people that are judging you, the people that you feel that are judging you, or putting you in this box, didn't make the sacrifice you did. So there is a, there is an anger factor that comes in, like, how are you going to tell me what I'm worth, when I, I, I was part of the nation's defense? You're, you're, you're marry from HR. Like, how are you going to tell me that I belong in this box, when, you know, it's, it's a hard chip to take off, or alter.

But once, like you said, internalize that service, and don't make it a external, like, almost like, you owe me. Um, and internalize it, so this, I did it for me. It helps you, it, it, it helps people want to talk to you more. Like, I'll admit, I wasn't the, I wasn't Mr. Bubbly, and I wasn't that guy at, you know, I just wasn't. I'm like, why am I going to break bread with people who, you know, if I told him to do 20 push-ups right now, it would take, come, they'd be like, oh, I'll give you rounds of five.

Like, why would I, why would I want to give my time to you? And it's like, well, no, Chris, they're not, they're not part of that world, and you can't judge them for that. Absolutely. You know, cuz me and you meet guys every day: oh, I would have enlisted, but my shoelace came untied, and then, you know, my mom said no. We meet them every day, and have to work with them, and then sometimes they affect how we provide for our families. And in the military, we know, hey, for sure, let you go out back and, like, okay, figure it out.

And you can't do that here. It's a passive aggressive email. And, uh, that, that instinct will never go away, as long as you make peace with, you know, make peace with who you are, instead of trying to fight it so much. Uh, and it'll, it'll, it'll get people to be a little more open with you. And I'm still working on that. It's a process, it's still a process. You know, I love my, that's why I love working with my plumbers, and, and plumbers, and HVAC. They're, they're, they're, they're hardened people.

You know, they're, they're okay with being told direct. You know, it's not the same thing with, you know, lawyers and doctors, who, you know, want, want to present it different. That, those guys, no care, tell me straight and narrow, just tell me straight up. I'm like, oh, thank God.

PJ: Yeah, I hear you.

Chris: Yeah, so it's, it's, yeah, it's, I always make the reference to Batman. We have to be, we have to take that cape off sometimes.

PJ: I got a question. U, I have one more, I guess, topic, um, that I would like to, to touch on. Um, when it comes to, like, res sources that you may have used upon getting out, like, what, what was most helpful for you, and how did you navigate them?

Chris: I'll be, I'll be honest, I really, I, I, TAP, TAP was good, but if it, because it wasn't local. So I did a lot of LinkedIn, lot of local networking, uh, uh, my school. Again, I went to school in New York, my base was in Dover, and I lived in Pennsylvania. And so Delaware, Delaware, New York, PA. So, um, a lot of it was just networking, networking as much as I could. Okay, uh, resource, I tried to use TAP and then find TAP, uh, somewhere local, but it, it was hard to try ulate all the different states I was in.

Again, trying to maximize my benefits to, you know, keep the lights on, right? Um, but in terms of resource, it was a lot of just reaching out, finding networking, finding veteran networking groups.

PJ: Um, like on Meetup, or what do you mean?

Chris: Uh, just, just Googling. I just, just, just online, just looking at veteran owned businesses, and then going, hey, you know, they, I wouldn't, I don't have to do the pitch. I knew I wouldn't have to do the pitch with them if I applied, of, oh, I'm not going to be deployed, cuz I was still in the reserves. I'm, I'm not going to, you know, it's only one week in a month. So, uh, it, it, resource-wise, wasn't, wasn't as much as I really believe should be out there, to be honest with you.

Okay, I think we kind of fall short on, on the resources, uh, even, even for, even for reservice. Um, there's not a lot of resources on balancing the two worlds. M, it's a lot of, yeah, we know you're on your third marriage, we know we're asking for too much from the Reserve side, civilian side. So even, even from a resource standpoint, um, there's a lot more that could be out there to, to tie guys in. Because unless you're going to school, um, and have that network, there's really not much else out there.

PJ: Okay, so it was challenging to find what you needed?

Chris: Yes, at that time, yes.

PJ: Quick question on that. Do you think you know what you needed at that time?

Chris: No. Yeah, okay, no, no way, no way. No, it's, now I could, yeah, now very different, but then I had no idea. Not a clue on, on where I should be. You know, a lot of it just came to 2 amm Googles and, and YouTube, and trying to figure out, you know, what it is. And, you know, I didn't want to be a real estate agent, I didn't want to be in law enforcement, so, and that's what heavily what it fell into, just based along, just based off the cultures, you know?

So, uh, resource wise, I feel like there could be a lot more out there to just a connect, just a networking group to connect, that isn't paid for. It's just somewhere that you can just connect and hear stories. Cuz it was, it was, again, uh, there are, I mean, I'll be honest, there are some veterans who do keep their story locked up and don't want to share. They almost feel like, I'm going to, I'm going to, you know, hoard, hoard the information. Cuz, I mean, we meet, we meet him in the military, the guys who know the rules and regulations, wait for you to fail it, and they, well, I knew that.

You watched me do it, man, you couldn't say anything before? So, you know, I'd love to say that all of us are happy gol lucky, but it's, it's, it's also, you know, even veterans judge veterans.

PJ: Oh, absolutely.

Chris: Yeah, so there's a, there's a subculture of us fighting each other, too, you know? And it's, uh, one thing I always tell reservers, that when you go to work, understand you represent reservists. Like, when I go to work, I'm not just Chris Payano, I'm representing the reserves. So when the next time my bank looks at a reserve, say, oh, well, Chris didn't do so bad, and he's in the reserve. So I think if we had a little more of that, and in, in our resources, to go, hey, just understand that when you do go to work and you do find success, you're still representing us.

Because it's still hard for us, you know? There's a lot of stigmas. You know, everyone thinks we have PTSD, everyone thinks we have, you know, everyone thinks that we're this, you know, bloodthirsty group of guys that just, I mean, there, there's a good chunk, but the, there's a lot of stigmas that we have to fight. M, you know, you, you, you pair that with being a minority, being, you know, you're, you're also culturally, you're 10 years, most of us are 10, 15 years ahead of our age.

PJ: Oh yeah.

Chris: You know, I learned that in my marriage very quick. I'm like, I met my wife at 26, I was really 40, and she was 25, maybe 20, you know, just because of experience. So there's another culture to fight, in terms of how much our experience has driven us forward. Yeah, you know, most 19-year-old, 20-year-olds can't talk to a 20-year-old. There's some 20-year-olds that I knew that had two, three deployments in their belt. 20, can't even drink yet, right? And these guys got three tours to him.

How do you going talk to a 20-year-old who's split in a Miller Lite with his buddy going to college? Those two guys, no, not at all, complete. So, you know, ref, resource wise, I'd love to see something tap into that, and not be so much, you know, boxed in, but more of a linear, linear guide.

PJ: Okay, so finding people that can relate. Cool, man. Yo, thank you. Um, this was, this was awesome. Real quick, what's your favorite book?

Chris: Uh, the last book that you had me looking at now. So I can't remember the title off the top of my head right now, but, uh, once basketball season's over, I'm, I'm cracking it open.

PJ: Was a sports book?

Chris: Uh, no, the book you recommended to me. The, you sent me the, the YouTube, many. Yeah, I got to wrap up basketball season. We have, we have a potential championship team. Um, I do, I do, I don't care about winning so much. I want to pro, I want to, you know, form a group of guys who would be better men down the road. Absolutely. But my boys are, they're dialed in. So, um, it's been, that's been, again, I can't, I can't tell you how great for veterans is to coaching.

There's a program, there's a program called, uh, veterans to Sidelines, or something of that line, that I'd love to see come up in the valley. But, uh, yeah, man, I'll get to, I'll get to reading once, once, I mean, lacr season, I have two months, a two- Monon break. But, uh, I'll get to reading once, once.

PJ: What about when you've already read? Like, what's your favorite?

Chris: I can't even remember, dude. I just been, I, CU, again, on, like, I've, I love the podcasting world, and I've learned so much by just watching that, that it's just.

PJ: What's your favorite podcast?

Chris: Uh, right now I watch, it's a little boring, uh, I watch, uh, I watch this, uh, tax guy. Oh, uh, yeah, I forget his name. Tax, tax something. But I just, I've always been such a performance, hands-on guy, that I never really wanted to dive into the book so much. And I've learned so much about the unsexy part of, of the world, which is taxes, and that. I just absolutely been nerding out on learning tax law. I'm like, in a different life, I would have, I just, I just love, you know, 6' 2, just absolutely think it's such a, it's such a cool thing to learn in tax law, and, and diving into it.

PJ: Well, yeah, it can protect you.

Chris: Yeah, it was, it's just a cool thing to learn. It's just, it's just crazy to see how really structured we are through the IRS, and, and the, the things you can and can't do, and all based off of interpretation. It's like, wow, our entire economy is based off that. So I've been, I've been pretty, pretty upset with that. I'd love to get back into reading about philosophy. I just, it, it just, I fell in love with it. Yeah, if, if I had, if I had a million dollars in the bank, I'd probably go teach philosophy for, for free.

PJ: I love that.

Chris: Just, just such, such an important, yeah, such an important thing to understand how to structure a conversation. Cuz, I mean, we have, we, I think our, our brains have good intentions, and then it comes out of our mouth, and it comes out as this wild thing. But then philosophy really dials in: do I really believe that? Again, my wife hates it, cuz I don't argue with her, I just challenge. I'm like, well, if you support this, you support that. Leave me alone. And I'm like, just philosophy. You know, if you stand on one point, you have to stand on the other.

PJ: So yeah, man, this was, this was, this was great. Thank you.

Chris: Thank you.

PJ: Hey, thank you for watching. Um, I know this was probably rough on the first one, so grace would be appreciated. If you have any feedback, please leave it in the comments. Um, we will be doing these on a regular basis. Please let me know if there's any, um, any sort of, you know, questions you'd like me to ask guests, or if there's another guests that you think would be good to have on. But we're going to be focusing on the transition period. If you like what we have, please subscribe, please follow, and we'll see you next time.